Idea for legislation to reform the trade in Fossils of Large Vertebrates in the United States

[Joseph Fossil]

19 hours ago, Kane said:

This is one of those topics that opens up a big can of worms, and views can get fairly heated. We've had this debate a number of times here on the forum.

 

For good or ill, laws mandating how people dispose of their own private property are not going to be popular or without considerable pushback. 

 

@Kane Your definitely right on another thing - This did unleash a big can of worms! 

[Joseph Fossil]

18 hours ago, jpc said:

The state of Wyoming doesn't even allow folks to collect on state lands, with a half dozen fish quarries being the exceptions. 

And yes, places like Wyoming and other fossil rich western states have VERY strong personal property rights beliefs.  The idea of the state basically taking over anything on private land (which is what is at issue here) is a non-starter out here.  Dead in the water.

 

You folks may have seen the silly Dinosaur Hunters TV show, in which the guy from WY is selling stuff found on his land.  Before the show started, he DID approach the state legislators to fund his T rex staying in the state.  Nope said the legislators.  Last I heard, his T rex was going to Moscow.  Not in Idaho, but the other Moscow.  This was before the invasion of Urkaine, so I don't know where it stands.  (I should call him and ask).  

 

@jpc Your right in that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to pass, but I'm cautiously optimistic!!!  

[jpc]

14 minutes ago, Joseph Fossil said:

 

 

It's also worth noting most people don't have the resources to properly care for a giant fossil skeleton like that of, say, Deinonychus, that a museum would nor have the equipment museum's have to treat stuff like Pyrite sickness. 

you assume a lot there... both your examples, pyrite disease and care of large specimens are headaches for museums and most museums are not equipped for either.  Right now, my museum is debating whether to collect a sauropod next summer.  We have the specimen in the ground, time, and manpower, and maybe the money, but do we have the space?

 

I also agree that prices paid for fossils these days are ridiculous. 

 

Let me throw this thought out ... you seem concerned that the commercial market keeps a T rex specimens out of the scientific community, but the exact opposite is true with the Green River Fm here in Wyoming.  As you might know, there are a dozen or more commercial quarries where they collect thousands of fossil fishes every summer.  Because they are collecting so much, they are actually finding the rarities.  Some of these end up lost to science, but not all.  At this point the GRF is the second best Eocene bird site in the world because a lot of the birds these commercial folks find end up in museums.      

[Praefectus]

1 hour ago, Joseph Fossil said:

The debate I wanted to start here is the fact there is a real threat theses specimens are getting lost to science

 

A fossil under private ownership is not "lost to science". That's just anti-amateur SVP rhetoric. A review of the scientific literature will find many instances where privately owned material is documented and commented on. The requirement that fossil material must be accessioned in a public repository is held only by a select number of high-performing journals. 

 

24 minutes ago, Joseph Fossil said:

It's also worth noting most people don't have the resources to properly care for a giant fossil skeleton like that of, say, Deinonychus, that a museum would nor have the equipment museum's have to treat stuff like Pyrite sickness. 

 

All you need is a climate-controlled room and a safe storage container. Air conditioners are fairly common in the modern world. 

[hadrosauridae]

1 hour ago, Joseph Fossil said:

....

 

What I see as an enormous problem is the fossil market is making fossils so expensive that the incentives to sell a fossil for $10, $15, $20 million are beginning to outweigh the more honorable road of donating a specimen with no money attached to it! Either way, you still get credited for finding the specimen, the glory for finding that specimen shall and always will be yours...Shouldn’t that be enough!!!

 

The cash a Museum currently spends on buying specimens from private landowners could be better spent on funding more expeditions to find new specimens in the field!

 

It was the corrupt legal system, in partnership with federal authorities and finalized by the museums with major donor backing that created the problem in the first place.  Until the Sue debacle, even T-Rex were not the extremely expensive fossils that we deal with today.  If the BHI had been able to purchase back the fossil it would have been over and done with.  But with the behemoth backers, the price spiraled out of control for an astronomical price.  That Genie can never be put back into the bottle, and resulted in the situation we have today.

 

Dont come in and say that the big, sexy fossils have to be surrendered or confiscated to "protect them".  Its the very people who created the mess that you propose handing more power to.  NO!  

 

You also dont need to "spur the debate".  Go spend you time reading the past debates.  You'll get the same answers.

Edited November 15, 2022 by hadrosauridae
spelling

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, Joseph Fossil said:

This is simply referring to fossils and there is one thing though that I think puts fossils in a completely different category that other stuff that could be found on private property like copper or even gold. These were at one point living organisms like you and I. They may be composed of minerals and rock, but as fossils they’re more that and should be respected as such.

 

Proposing legislative ideas does not occur in a 'bubble'; nor does the impact of those ideas.

 

Further, the justification you propose falls again into the arbitrary enforcement arena when you think about how many fossils are consumed internally and externally daily in modern, civilized society.  Consider the ways that happens.  

 

You may not advocate for "jail time", but what happens when someone refuses to pay your fine for refusing to sell the dino (or any other fossil) they dug up on their property or legally acquired?

[Joseph Fossil]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

you assume a lot there... both your examples, pyrite disease and care of large specimens are headaches for museums and most museums are not equipped for either.  Right now, my museum is debating whether to collect a sauropod next summer.  We have the specimen in the ground, time, and manpower, and maybe the money, but do we have the space?

 

I also agree that prices paid for fossils these days are ridiculous. 

 

Let me throw this thought out ... you seem concerned that the commercial market keeps a T rex specimens out of the scientific community, but the exact opposite is true with the Green River Fm here in Wyoming.  As you might know, there are a dozen or more commercial quarries where they collect thousands of fossil fishes every summer.  Because they are collecting so much, they are actually finding the rarities.  Some of these end up lost to science, but not all.  At this point the GRF is the second best Eocene bird site in the world because a lot of the birds these commercial folks find end up in museums.      

 

@jpc Thanks for letting me know that! I really do appreciate the input and I actually didn't know about what's happening with the Green River Formation. I should have mentioned earlier that I'm not in favor of closing down any confirmed potential fossil sites (that's fully my bad). You are absolutely right in that commercial quarries and amateur  collectors help drive the field of Paleontology and Paleo-ecology forward greatly! 

[Joseph Fossil]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

you assume a lot there... both your examples, pyrite disease and care of large specimens are headaches for museums and most museums are not equipped for either.  Right now, my museum is debating whether to collect a sauropod next summer.  We have the specimen in the ground, time, and manpower, and maybe the money, but do we have the space?     

 

@jpc On the topic of pyrite disease and care for large specimens, your right in that museums struggle a lot with this...But, they at least have the resources to deal with this ( at least the biggest ones and you’re also right most Museums don't have the funds to do this effectively-more federal and state museum funding would be a good option to solve this). I just have a really sinking feeling that most of the private individuals who buy large specimens don't take these considerations in mind. The last thing I would want to happen is for someone to buy a full dinosaur skeleton, put in there living room, go out to dinner several months later, and come back to find the skeleton completely collapsed and on the ground, the victim of pyrite sickness!

[Joseph Fossil]

FYI Everyone, I'm sorry if I've been misplacing your or you’re in the sentences! Autocorrect on computer is not the best for mine!

[Joseph Fossil]

For this debate, I have another question! I wondering if you guys had an opportunity to reform the trade in fossils (both vertebrate and invertebrate), what would you do?   

[Kane]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Fossil said:

For this debate, I have another question! I wondering if you guys had an opportunity to reform the trade in fossils (both vertebrate and invertebrate), what would you do?   

Probably not a thing as I don't perceive a problem to be solved. 

 

Tim (fossildude) earlier in the thread mentioned the training/permitting of citizen paleontologists, which would prove a very good idea in keeping up a working relationship with professional paleontologists, potentially increasing collecting opportunities, as well as deepening the knowledge and appreciation of good collecting practices for amateur collectors. 

[JohnJ]

4 minutes ago, Kane said:

Probably not a thing as I don't perceive a problem to be solved. 

I agree.

 

As I mentioned earlier, public institutions that are dependent on donated funding might achieve many of their goals and dreams through public relations that are more effective at inspiring donors...not forcing them under penalty of law.  

 

 

[Troodon]

I would get rid of social media .  The fact is that a lot of the information out there is just doom and gloom and likes to paint a negative picture and rarely come back to complete the story. 

The T rex that sold for around $26 million received tons of bad press from the media and paleontologists.  It sold for a crazy amount but in the end its in a museum in Abu Dubai.   The Dueling Dinosaurs had lots of negative press and a botched auction but in the end its in a museum being studied.   Big John the Triceratops sold for record amount, but no one knew it was offered to museums at a out of the ground price and the seller was willing to work with them but there were no takers.   It was an awful specimen and a 3rd party made it look good and someone paid a crazy price for a poor specimen.  The Deinonychus skeleton that recently sold for $12m received tons of hype and negative press.   However it was a very partial specimen without a skull and 3rd party made it look good with lots of replica parts.  So yes it probably had some limited scientific value and we do not yet know where it went but not worth the hype it received.

Museums today do have a problem competing with private individuals but I think it's in the minority of what comes available.  Some good smaller specimens will wind up in private hands.  The bigger problem is finding the resources ($$ , people and space) to support continued research.  I endorse any effort to encourage donations by private individuals and higher government funding. 

 

 

[DPS Ammonite]

24 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I would get rid of social media

Certain ones, not The Fossil Forum. The well moderated ones usually are worthwhile.

[Top Trilo]

2 hours ago, Joseph Fossil said:

For this debate, I have another question! I wondering if you guys had an opportunity to reform the trade in fossils (both vertebrate and invertebrate), what would you do?   

It would be nice to have more access to collecting. Here in my state (Colorado) collecting from road cuts is illegal as its property of CDOT (Colorado Department of Transportation). You can't collect any fossil, not even a brachiopod.

[FossilDAWG]

So what if it was once a living thing?  On what basis should that restrict its value?

 

You should be aware that the idea that all fossils are intrinsically rare antiquities and must be protected has led directly to blanket bans on collecting even the most common of fossils in  countries around the world.  In Italy for example you can be fined heavily for salvaging an ammonite from a quarry before it is crushed to make cement.

[Harry Pristis]

In the USA we should return to teaching civics to youngsters and to immigrants.  Not the elemental "three branches of government," but the meaning and practice of Constitutional rights, like privacy and private property rights.  We might thereby suppress the infiltration into our culture of fringe thinking, be it right-wing or communistic.  I can't help but think that the OP might have benefited from such civics lessons.

[AranHao]

This is a question about balance. The trade of fossils can improve the public's enthusiasm for paleontology. Often some amazing discoveries depend on the public...

[DPS Ammonite]

5 hours ago, Joseph Fossil said:

For this debate, I have another question! I wondering if you guys had an opportunity to reform the trade in fossils (both vertebrate and invertebrate), what would you do?   

It might be worthwhile to see if a government, public agency or museum could acquire a right of first refusal, at market price, for certain fossils for sale. It is already a common practice in the land/real estate and art markets.

 

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/DamroschNote_fqh9sjio.pdf

[JohnJ]

2 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

It might be worthwhile to see if a government, public agency or museum could acquire a right of first refusal, at market price, for certain fossils for sale. It is already a common practice in the land/real estate and art markets.

 

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/DamroschNote_fqh9sjio.pdf

 

The logistics of 'right of first refusal' are, again, a miasma of arbitrary, bureaucratic definition.  If someone desires to sell their fossil, it's up to them who they sell it to.

 

[Joseph Fossil]

4 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

It might be worthwhile to see if a government, public agency or museum could acquire a right of first refusal, at market price, for certain fossils for sale. It is already a common practice in the land/real estate and art markets.

 

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/DamroschNote_fqh9sjio.pdf

 

@DPS Ammonite It may be difficult to implement, but it has great potential and it's a good idea! 

[Troodon]

11 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

It might be worthwhile to see if a government, public agency or museum could acquire a right of first refusal, at market price, for certain fossils for sale. It is already a common practice in the land/real estate and art markets.

 

Unfortunately every specimen sold is unique as to rarity, preservation, completness and state of preparation.   So we do not have a large sampling size to establish a value on one-off specimens that can be quite different from each other.  The auction is the vehicle to set the price someone is willing to pay.   Not a bureaucrat or someone in another public agency/museum who do not understand or are close the commercial side of the industry.   Who would have expected the prices realized in the auctions I mentioned above.  You have to let the market set the price as crazy as they might be.   A few specimens may temporarily be lost to science but thats not all bad.  Think about the energy its creating on the commercial side to go out and keep exploring and discovering cool new specimens.  If you look at the new dinosaurs and discoveries made in the Hell Creek/Lance Formation over the past decade a good number were because of commercial diggers.   We cannot stifle that enthusiasm and drive to find the next special item.   

 

 

[Tales From the Shale]

There is always going to be people who break the law regardless of the difficulty in doing so. Banning the fossil trade will go the way of the Drug War, and will only enflame things. That being said I don't like the idea that fossils have retail value, but there isn't anything that can really be done. Especially against the rich, because they're essentially above the law. Look at any large company or bank service. If you have millions to spend, it's highly likely a few thousand more won't be any chore to get someone to acquire them illegally.

[minnbuckeye]

On 11/15/2022 at 5:21 PM, Top Trilo said:

Here in my state (Colorado) collecting from road cuts is illegal

Isn't Douglas Pass a road cut that is collected?

 

As for the interesting subject at hand, coming from someone who collects mostly corals, brachiopods and gastropods from 400,000,000 years ago, I wish I could find some institution that would enjoy studying even a few of my finds. But they just sit in my barn, waiting for the day a paleontologist may want to study them. At least they are found and being held in case that day ever comes. But wait, isn't dino material in question much like my corals and brachiopods? It has been found already. And hopefully in the next million years an owner may enjoy their possession being studied too. What is better, in the ground or in the possession of someone. The point is, one day, without laws, fossils like this can hopefully find their way back into the research portal (assuming private ownership does not eliminate the ability to study such specimens). Be happy they have been discovered. That is the most important step!!!!!!!!!

 

Mike

[Top Trilo]

1 hour ago, minnbuckeye said:

Isn't Douglas Pass a road cut that is collected?

 

As for the interesting subject at hand, coming from someone who collects mostly corals, brachiopods and gastropods from 400,000,000 years ago, I wish I could find some institution that would enjoy studying even a few of my finds. But they just sit in my barn, waiting for the day a paleontologist may want to study them. At least they are found and being held in case that day ever comes. But wait, isn't dino material in question much like my corals and brachiopods? It has been found already. And hopefully in the next million years an owner may enjoy their possession being studied too. What is better, in the ground or in the possession of someone. The point is, one day, without laws, fossils like this can hopefully find their way back into the research portal (assuming private ownership does not eliminate the ability to study such specimens). Be happy they have been discovered. That is the most important step!!!!!!!!!

 

Mike

That is a good point, while I've never collected at Douglas Pass, I believe it is along the side of a road. All I know is that codot.gov says

"Q: Can I collect fossils in Colorado's roadsides? 
A: No--because the edges of the roadways are part of CDOT's "Right of Way", which belongs to the State of Colorado."

 

I don't know the legal situation of Douglas Pass.