Best resource on consolidants and adhesives for in the field and in the lab?

[NickG]

Hi all,

 

I'm looking for what members would consider an accessible resource on adhesives and consolidants, their preparation and their use in the field and the lab. We primarily collect Paleozoic invertebrate fossils, but also some vertebrate fragments here and there.

 

I'd be curious what people's go-to resources are... particular book titles, webpages, journal articles, etc. I'm looking ultimately to be able to reliably figure out what is needed to ensure our finds are stabilized in the field. We are finding more and more vertebrate fragments and I want to be certain they're kept in good order.

[Fossildude19]

LINK

[hadrosauridae]

Fossildude's reply should give you the info you about consolidates and glues.  where best to obtain them tends to change over time, so when you decide what you want, let us. know and we can probably help you find a supplier

[NickG]

1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Is there supposed to be something here? This is how the page appears to me.

[Kane]

4 minutes ago, Nick G. said:

Is there supposed to be something here? This is how the page appears to me.

 

There are some ongoing issues with the forum, pending which device and browser you may be using. Tim was linking to another topic that contained a lot of good reference material.

 

Perform a search on the forum for "CONSOLIDANTS & ADHESIVES - PDF Papers" (but remember to click/tap on "more options" and toggle "content titles only"

[CDiggs]

I also love the resources AMNH provides as well

http://preparation.paleo.amnh.org/47/adhesives-and-consolidants

[NickG]

51 minutes ago, CDiggs said:

I also love the resources AMNH provides as well

http://preparation.paleo.amnh.org/47/adhesives-and-consolidants

Yes. I wanted to see how many people also agreed to that. 

 

I feel like depending on who I ask in the professional realm I get conflicting opinions that reflect more histories of people's work or lab environments rather than "best practices".

2 hours ago, Kane said:

There are some ongoing issues with the forum, pending which device and browser you may be using. Tim was linking to another topic that contained a lot of good reference material.

 

Perform a search on the forum for "CONSOLIDANTS & ADHESIVES - PDF Papers" (but remember to click/tap on "more options" and toggle "content titles only"

Wow! This should be a pinned post... https://www.thefossilforum.com/topic/104680-consolidants-adhesives-pdf-papers/

[NickG]

Would you use B76 or B72 for field stabilization? I have vertebrate fossils that are fairly porous (shark spines). In the field I've sometimes super glued matrix together to keep teeth together to avoid the pieces jumbling around while being careful to not glue the actual fossils. Any guidance here specific to this case would be welcome.

[hadrosauridae]

2 hours ago, Nick G. said:

Would you use B76 or B72 for field stabilization? I have vertebrate fossils that are fairly porous (shark spines). In the field I've sometimes super glued matrix together to keep teeth together to avoid the pieces jumbling around while being careful to not glue the actual fossils. Any guidance here specific to this case would be welcome.

 

For starters, you can not simply call it "B76", nor can you just call it "Paraloid".  There are multiple formulations of each type of plastic, each with it own unique properties, just like there are multiple plastics with a "B76" designation. SOMETIMES we cheat when discussing because the paleontology accepted versions are for Paraloid B-72 and Butvar B-76. Its best if you at least start by saying the full name, and then just using "paraloid" or "butvar" after establishing which one.

 

Now, if you are asking about preference between the two, you are correct, you'll get different answers depending on who you talk to.  Thats because they do the same thing in the same way.  Both are acceptable.  The differences have to do with things like glass transition temperature and shear strength.  

[NickG]

11 hours ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

For starters, you can not simply call it "B76", nor can you just call it "Paraloid".  There are multiple formulations of each type of plastic, each with it own unique properties, just like there are multiple plastics with a "B76" designation. SOMETIMES we cheat when discussing because the paleontology accepted versions are for Paraloid B-72 and Butvar B-76. Its best if you at least start by saying the full name, and then just using "paraloid" or "butvar" after establishing which one.

 

Great, you just reinforced my deepest fears (flashbacks of ochem). Case in point, I can't tell you how many people have said 'just use polyvinyl acetate', but Elmers is a formulation of PVA and I understand it can yellow over time (based on reading here many many times), but within archives/libraries, we use pH neutral PVA that dries clear and I've never seen yellow, even on books that were glued with it 20 years ago or more. (and to be clear, we use PVA as an adhesive, NOT a stabilizer in the book world, I cannot recall a time I've ever needed a stabilizer; though typically my motto when a book is in disrepair and if it's in an archival setting is to make a box or sleeve for it)...

 

Quote

Now, if you are asking about preference between the two, you are correct, you'll get different answers depending on who you talk to.  Thats because they do the same thing in the same way.  Both are acceptable.  The differences have to do with things like glass transition temperature and shear strength.  

 

I need something that's relatively simple to mix in the home lab and stable enough to transport and use in the field and can permeate potentially crumbly porous fossil material rapidly. I don't mind if it takes awhile to set because the fossil material can sit for awhile while we are continuing to collect.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Nick G.

[cngodles]

17 hours ago, Kane said:

There are some ongoing issues with the forum

 

You have to browse it using http:// not https://

 

There are scripts on the backend that seem to be permenantly rooted to http, and when you use https they fail for simple security reasons. You can't even page through posts on https.

 

The form shows the embed as http content. When you use the site with https, anything non secure (http) is blocked from loading, hence the empty block.

Edited October 21, 2023 by cngodles
More context

[NickG]

I swear I originally posted this in the parent forum to this one not this subforum. What is going on here?

[Kane]

That is bizarre. I’ve moved it to its new home in Fossil Preparation given how closely it aligns.

[hadrosauridae]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:45 AM, Nick G. said:

 

Great, you just reinforced my deepest fears (flashbacks of ochem). Case in point, I can't tell you how many people have said 'just use polyvinyl acetate', but Elmers is a formulation of PVA and I understand it can yellow over time (based on reading here many many times), but within archives/libraries, we use pH neutral PVA that dries clear and I've never seen yellow, even on books that were glued with it 20 years ago or more. (and to be clear, we use PVA as an adhesive, NOT a stabilizer in the book world, I cannot recall a time I've ever needed a stabilizer; though typically my motto when a book is in disrepair and if it's in an archival setting is to make a box or sleeve for it)...

 

 

I need something that's relatively simple to mix in the home lab and stable enough to transport and use in the field and can permeate potentially crumbly porous fossil material rapidly. I don't mind if it takes awhile to set because the fossil material can sit for awhile while we are continuing to collect.

 

Don't stress, its simple and straightforward. Which of the 2 consolidates you use won't matter for field use.  Either one will dissolve into acetone or alcohol.  Acetone will evaporate off and set faster, but alcohol can let it get deeper into the fossil because it takes longer to evaporate.  For a consolidate, you want thin solution, in the range of 2 - 5 percent of plastic in solution.  Don't get hung up on exactly perfect mixes.  The solvent will evaporate from the container over time and with use, so that perfect 5% will very quickly become, 6, 7, 8% etc. and then you add littl emore solvent to thin it back down and becomes 3.5% and round and round you go.

Just keep in mind; thin penetrates, thick glues.  Thin is weak, thick is strong.  EVERYTHING is a trade off.

Now for example, lets say you want 5% solution.  Just mix 5% to 95% ratio by weights in a jar, put on the lid (make sure its compatible with your solvent) and swirl the jar around every few minutes, or whenever you walk past it, etc. Once all the beads are dissolved and there isn't a "syrup" in the bottom when you swirl it, you're all set.  I use small hobby, natural fiber paint brushes to apply, but droppers work too.  Apply it and let it soak in.  Maybe even give it a few applications to start.  Depending on heat, humidity etc, you may want to let is set an hour or 2.  Then you may want to give it another application. If its still soaking in, it probably needed more.   Just be aware, that this could easily be flowing through the fossil and into the matrix around it.   That would be good for transporting it, but makes prep that much more work.  The good thing is that this can be re-dissolves with solvent . 

 

Personally, I'm still mostly using a CA in the field.  I know its permanent, I know that Butvar and Paraloid are "better" options, but I've been using CA for 14 years now and its hard for me to switch.  I dont have endless hours to let consolidates set or come back day after day until its ready to remove.  I glue it, jacket it, then flip it.  You just have to be judicious in the application.  One final note for you here.... CA and consolidants can be friends or enemies depending on your solvent.  Acetone will temporarily soften CA, which would be bad in the field.  Alcohol doesnt affect CA, so you can still apply that over the bone sections after gluing breaks with CA.

Edited October 22, 2023 by hadrosauridae

[Ptychodus04]

I’m a little late to the discussion but can’t resist the temptation to ignore all the good advice above and give my own thoughts without consideration of whether or not I’m repeating things said above. 

 

I’ve been prepping fossils going on 30 years and have seen preferred materials come and go. There’s a general “best practice” but every preparator has their own favorites. 
 

Best practice is to use conservation grade materials when at all possible but deviate from this if needed. I once had a museum curator tell me he would rather have a fossil covered in cyanoacrylate than not have the fossil. Cyanoacrylate is not considered conservation grade as it is not indefinitely stable and is not readily reversible.

 

My preferred stabilizer is Paraloid B72. It is slightly harder than Butvar B76 and is typically ever so slightly more economical. In the amounts I use it, saving a couple bucks a pound adds up. I keep a bulk amount of 25% solution on hand that I dilute as needed. I also only use acetone as my solvent. Since I’m using it 100% for prep stabilizing, I need the more rapid vaporization over ethanol to keep my solution from picking up debris.

[FossilDAWG]

Here is a follow-up question about consolidants for field use.  Sometimes it isn't possible to dry a fossil in the field, but the plastics such as B-72 make a white mess when applied to wet surfaces.  Is there some better product for those situations, or is it best to use the plastic consolidants and remove it later at home with acetone, dry the fossil properly, and re-consolidate?

 

Don

[Ptychodus04]

15 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

Here is a follow-up question about consolidants for field use.  Sometimes it isn't possible to dry a fossil in the field, but the plastics such as B-72 make a white mess when applied to wet surfaces.  Is there some better product for those situations, or is it best to use the plastic consolidants and remove it later at home with acetone, dry the fossil properly, and re-consolidate?

 

Don

 

Primal (Rhoplex) WS 24 is the usual go to for consolidating wet specimens.

[hadrosauridae]

19 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

Here is a follow-up question about consolidants for field use.  Sometimes it isn't possible to dry a fossil in the field, but the plastics such as B-72 make a white mess when applied to wet surfaces.  Is there some better product for those situations, or is it best to use the plastic consolidants and remove it later at home with acetone, dry the fossil properly, and re-consolidate?

 

Don

 

I've done some reading on wet consolidates, but there isnt much available, as a stabilizer, or people writing papers about how to use it.  Its frustrating because I know this has to be a wider issue.  The badlands I hunt are basically desert environments so I havent had to deal with it yet.

 

The problem with standard glues and stabilizers is that they instantly react to water, so you get 1) a mess, 2) no penetration, 3) no real stabilizing because it cant penetrate.  I think that if I had to work in a wet field condition (as opposed in water) I would probably just jacket it and let it slowly dry in the prep lab. before attempting to work on.

[RuMert]

They usually recommend PVA for wet samples

[Ptychodus04]

49 minutes ago, RuMert said:

They usually recommend PVA for wet samples

PVA suspensions are viable but not recommended. Since the plastic is not soluble in water, you’re not going to get good penetration and will effectively only achieve a surface coating. 
 

I don’t know why but PVA suspensions are not readily soluble after several years. Applications of acetone to old applications always result in a surface coating of a sticky booger-like substance that must be scraped off. 

[hadrosauridae]

3 hours ago, RuMert said:

They usually recommend PVA for wet samples

 

One thing to keep in mind is that PVA does not equal PVA.     Confusing huh?  PVA as a glue or consolidant has two different meanings.  It can mean poly-vinyl alcohol, or it can mean poly-vinyl acetate.  So you could be referencing a soluble plastic (the acetate) or "elmers white glue" which is the alcohol, plus many other things (and the formula changes, and is secret, so we don't know what is truly in it).  

 

The white glue is what many people are calling PVA.  It was used many decades ago, but has fallen out of favor because it yellows, cracks, and as it cures, it cross-links which makes it permanent just like super glue.