Peace River: types of turtle shell IDs

[citronkitten]

Greetings,

 

I am working on my next display and am trying to sort through the various pieces of turtle shell. I have attempted to divide and label them as much as I can, using references I will post.  This is my first attempt at turtle shell and have relied entirely on examples and available resources, so any correction/confirmation/explanation would be most appreciated. 

 

On my paper (in case it's unreadable - tendonitis flaring up so handwriting quality going down), the upper half of the page is carapace, the lower half is plastron, the left half is softshell and the right half is hard shell. I included a composite image which has better focus on each quadrant (terrible lighting today), and a larger image on which I wrote my attempts at further identification. 

 

References:

 

This whole thread: 

 

This image (location directly on image):

 

  

 

This image was very helpful:

On 11/17/2020 at 4:16 AM, Plantguy said:

 

Here is a picture of some costals and some unique shapes for some Florida types that you probably have in Texas as well. Note the rib ends showing at the bottoms of the Chelydra (snapper) and Apalone (soft shell)...

 

 

And these hand-drawn diagrams I found to be most accessible:

  

On 12/15/2021 at 1:28 AM, digit said:

I spoke with Jack Brown today who volunteers with the FLMNH cataloging specimens. He's a mammal zoologist who has had to learn the Trachemys (slider) turtle as fossils from this are so common at the Montbrook site. He made a guide for himself that he's copied for others volunteering at the museum. He gave me permission to post this here in case others find this helpful.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

Trachemys_inflata.pdf 972.49 kB · 37 downloads

 

Edited February 19 by citronkitten
order of images; added numbers

[citronkitten]

Better photos of the pieces I tried to identify, along with my references:

 

#21 in large image as Trachemys C5 right: 

 

 

#22 in large image as Trachemys nucal fragment left OR P9 right:

 

 

#24 in large image I have changed my mind and labelled as Gopherus supracaudal left  (I am not sure on the Gopherus ID, but that fragment looks distinct from the others as far as texture and color):

 

#13 in the large image I have changed my label to softshell neural due to the raised ridge in the center (I'm not sure where else a ridge would occur on a softshell turtle):

 

#4 in the large image I have changed my label to be softshell neural on left side:

 

 

[citronkitten]

And a side-by-side comparison of the possible different species, along with reference photos:

 

 

I am least sure on Gopherus, if anyone would be able to confirm/correct that. 

[Balance]

Thanks for putting in all this effort! Turtle shell fragment and who they belong to has been on the list but the bottom of the list is getting further away from completion every day!! 
 

I also have representatives from each species.  

 

Interesting name for the Gopherus species. We have an extant Gopher tortoise in Florida with a very similar shell. I wonder if the extinct gopherus was a burrowing relative?!
 

Jp

[citronkitten]

Thank you for reading about it! It has been a process of many hours, and I'm still not totally confident, but as with many things there's always more to learn.  My display is just for my house, so no one will judge me too harshly (apart from myself). 

 

I left the shell fragments until almost the last things, too; the only thing under them is unknown bone fragments...which are likely to remain categorized as just that. At least with turtle shell it's pretty easy to tell that it is a piece of shell from some sort of Testudines creature, whereas with the bones it can be hard (for me) to narrow down past 'bone'. 

 

For the Gopherus, the species name polyphemus is great, although I doubt it's meant to correspond to the famous cyclops! I just read the blurb at the top regarding the species: <https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/03/bulletin-franzquitmyerlowres.pdf>. Might read through a bit more if I have some spare time. 

 

Nice clear specimens! Are the 3 big pieces examples of Apalone? The horizontal wrinkles keep throwing me off as the reference image has some wrinkles on Trachemys, but my thought is that the wrinkles (please excuse the 'technical term') are more pronounced on a softshell turtle vs. more rigid on the scales of a hard shell. Do you agree with that distinction? 

 

My dad has 2 'wild' gopher turtles that live in his backyard in Florida! They are really funny and not that skittish. Also, they run surprisingly fast! People clearly feed them (as do we when we are there visiting), so they generally run towards us in hopes of some treats. Proof below (we did NOT train it to do this!):

Edited February 20 by citronkitten
added photo

[Balance]

That’s funny. 
 

Im in Florida too. Actually have a client with a couple Galapagos tortoises. They are out with the horses. Interesting fact. The tortoise are willed to the kids. They will live longer than the owner!! 
 

Gopher Torts are protected so they have kinda gotten use to their burrows not being touched. I know of a bunch. They like using the fencing poles at horse farms as supports to dig their burrows around. Interesting fact: over 350 species rely on used gopher tort burrows. So without the torts we don’t have a bunch of other species. “Keystone” is the term.
 

We have a place here in Lakeland, Fl. Circle Bar B preserve.  It has a relocation center for gopher torts. When you walk around in the main habitat area (maybe a hundred acres) of the reserve there are burrows everywhere. Makes me realize why there are so many fossil frags of shells. These things must have been as populated as rodents back in the Pleistocene. At least in the the areas of scrub flats. 
 

I dug through the box and found some other examples to add to your library. I used your research because I’ve done none. So if you find different names later update the feed and let me know. 😊 

 

Upper left:  Apalone (I know this as “pond” turtle)

Upper right: Gopherus 

Lower left:  Trachemys

Lower right: Soft shell turtle (no idea species name) 

 

 

Edited February 20 by Balance

[citronkitten]

Wow, Galapagos tortoises get huge! They have some at the London Zoo and they dwarf my 4yo. I am not surprised to hear that they have been willed to the kids; the tortoises might even have to be passed on to the generation after that! 

 

My dad's place isn't too far from Circle B Bar Reserve - I have it saved on TripAdvisor as a place to go, but haven't made it out there. Will have to make a point of it next time! That makes sense as to why they're so friendly given that they're a protected species - no one can mess with them! How funny to see their burrows all around; they must really like the habitat. It's great that some land has been set aside for them, as it does indeed sound like they're a very important species for the ecosystem. 

 

Thank you for participating in my turtle hunt and sharing more photos! I think that upper left is Apalone sp.(spinifera) and bottom right is Apalone ferox. I have this photo (I think it's one of @Harry Pristis from another post:

 

It looks really similar to yours with the bit of spur(?) sticking out. 

 

Your gopher tortoise pieces look really similar to the one that I have, so that's reassuring. I'm pretty sure I only have the one, so it's nice to see some variety in your selection.

 

I need to look up Trachemys patterns a bit more; I vacillated between Apalone and Trachemys on some of mine with pronounced 'wrinkles' like yours; the reference image seems to show areas that are smooth, lightly dimpled, and 'wrinkled', so I'm not quite sure where to go with the wrinkly ones.  The colors also seem to show the most variation out of the four types, which doesn't help. either. Thank you for your examples! 

[Harry Pristis]

Fragments of turtle/tortoise carapace can be misleading for formal ID purposes.  (Apalone may be the exception.)  What is most reliable is the nuchal, the carapacial bone above the head and neck.

 

[citronkitten]

Thank you for the explanation and references. That makes sense seeing as I'm having such trouble identifying the types beyond Apalone! Particularly Trachemys seems to have a great deal of variation in shell patterns. Unfortunately, I think that I only have #22 as the sole nuchal fragment (and I'm not positive as it's quite worn), so might have to be happy to leave the others as 'turtle shell fragment'. Glad to have a range of specimens to show the variety in shell patterns, anyway! 

[Balance]

Went  out today after work. Pulled these out of the first few loads. I believe that’s all four. 😂😂

still wet.. biggest is 9cm. Long. 
 

Fun!! 
 

Jp

[citronkitten]

4 hours ago, Balance said:

Went  out today after work. Pulled these out of the first few loads. I believe that’s all four. 😂😂

still wet.. biggest is 9cm. Long. 
 

Fun!! 
 

Jp

Amazing! What a good selection - there must have been so many turtles "running" around in that area. Good sizes, too! Thanks for sharing and hope you had fun~ 

[Plantguy]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:00 PM, citronkitten said:

Thank you for the explanation and references. That makes sense seeing as I'm having such trouble identifying the types beyond Apalone! Particularly Trachemys seems to have a great deal of variation in shell patterns. Unfortunately, I think that I only have #22 as the sole nuchal fragment (and I'm not positive as it's quite worn), so might have to be happy to leave the others as 'turtle shell fragment'. Glad to have a range of specimens to show the variety in shell patterns, anyway! 

 

Cool thread and gopher tortoise pics too.!!  Have seen them quite a bit running around here over the years in different spots and the little ones are really really awesome.

Here's a couple of older ones..

 

I am still trying to go thru my pile of turtle/tortoise scraps to assign a particular genus/family and which part of the critter. Most of the ID's are/were in vain and have been wrong as most are fragments and to my amateur eye its been a struggle and many cant be ID'd to any generic level due to their worn/fragmented nature. I've gotten better with being able to compare them against complete images and the comparative extant examples I now have and much guidance from several experts but I still am pretty awful at it. LOL!

 

As Harry has said its the nuchals that are diagnostic, although sometimes they get pretty worn and they have some crazy sculpturing/variation particularly with the Trachemys and Pseudemys and getting to genus is all you can do if you are lucky especially if you dont know the exact age of the sediments. The other thing is the number of different types of turtles and tortoises....I dont think you have mentioned some of the other common genera we find around here to consider: Terrapene, Macroclemys,  Pseudemys, Hesperotestudo and there are a number of other rarer finds as well....

 

Looks like some of my text just got errantly deleted so I'm guessing I should end my ramblings here...Anyways here's an extant Apalone sp. photo as a general reference showing the neurals and a 2nd photo which has Trachemys costal closeup on the left and Apalone on the left. You have already recognized how a fragment with pitting can be a challenge. 

 

Here's a couple of more nuchal types:

Apalone and Terrapene...

All the time I have at the moment. Oh, I did see #34 and thought that pattern there suggested it might be snapping turtle...

 

Not sure about #22 being a nuchal...tough to tell with those images...

 

Cool stuff! 

Regards, Chris 

 

 

 

 

[citronkitten]

4 hours ago, Plantguy said:

 

Cool thread and gopher tortoise pics too.!!  Have seen them quite a bit running around here over the years in different spots and the little ones are really really awesome.

Here's a couple of older ones..

 

I am still trying to go thru my pile of turtle/tortoise scraps to assign a particular genus/family and which part of the critter. Most of the ID's are/were in vain and have been wrong as most are fragments and to my amateur eye its been a struggle and many cant be ID'd to any generic level due to their worn/fragmented nature. I've gotten better with being able to compare them against complete images and the comparative extant examples I now have and much guidance from several experts but I still am pretty awful at it. LOL!

 

As Harry has said its the nuchals that are diagnostic, although sometimes they get pretty worn and they have some crazy sculpturing/variation particularly with the Trachemys and Pseudemys and getting to genus is all you can do if you are lucky especially if you dont know the exact age of the sediments. The other thing is the number of different types of turtles and tortoises....I dont think you have mentioned some of the other common genera we find around here to consider: Terrapene, Macroclemys,  Pseudemys, Hesperotestudo and there are a number of other rarer finds as well....

 

Looks like some of my text just got errantly deleted so I'm guessing I should end my ramblings here...Anyways here's an extant Apalone sp. photo as a general reference showing the neurals and a 2nd photo which has Trachemys costal closeup on the left and Apalone on the left. You have already recognized how a fragment with pitting can be a challenge. 

 

Here's a couple of more nuchal types:

Apalone and Terrapene...

All the time I have at the moment. Oh, I did see #34 and thought that pattern there suggested it might be snapping turtle...

 

Not sure about #22 being a nuchal...tough to tell with those images...

 

Cool stuff! 

Regards, Chris 

 

 

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for spending time on the detailed reply! I love the photo of the two gopher tortoises - are they having a stare-off or are they friends? So cool to see them out and about, making the most of their urban habitat. 
 

I will look up those other genera; I had only run across the four I mentioned, so very interested to see what can of worms gets opened by adding more types into the mix! 
 

The reference photos are great, in particular the nearly complete Apalone sp. shell - is that one of yours or from a museum? Either way it's very impressive!
 

Comparing Trachemys and Apalone in close-up is a good idea; a lot of the pitting patterns are similar as has been discussed, but it does seem as a trend that the deeper ridges are particular to Trachemys.
 

I definitely don't have a Terrapene nuchal - that seems quite unique. Still not sure about my possible Trachemys nuchal as it's quite worn. I'll have another look at the underside and see if there's anything useful there. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion on #34 - will look into that! Some of the fragments I found do have nice textures, it's just my inexperience that means I can't translate the patterns into useful information. 
 

A big thanks again - you've given me a lot to look into!

 

Cheers!  

[Al Dente]

This one is an interesting shape. Do you have a photo of the other side?
 

 

[citronkitten]

@Plantguy

 

Here are some clearer photos showing the texture on item #34: 

 

Better lighting today (at least for the time being). 

Edited February 26 by citronkitten
photo layout

[citronkitten]

And better photos of #22, the possible nucal (better lighting + the recently pinned forum post about improving photos made a big difference):

[Plantguy]

14 hours ago, Al Dente said:

This one is an interesting shape. Do you have a photo of the other side?
 

 

Here you go (lower specimen in the photo..Its pretty worn and the attachment is gone and the photo isnt the greatest cause I put both in the frame. But above it is another larger Apalone nuchal for comparison and you can see the remnant spinal attachment a little better. 

Regards, Chris

[Al Dente]

8 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Here you go (lower specimen in the photo..Its pretty worn and the attachment is gone and the photo isnt the greatest cause I put both in the frame. But above it is another larger Apalone nuchal for comparison and you can see the remnant spinal attachment a little better. 

Thanks for showing this. I was having trouble finding a match online with the shape, but it looks like it is a good match to your larger piece.

[citronkitten]

A couple useful resources I found, specifically linking to @Plantguy's mention of other common genera:

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/amateur-collector/pripp/ (listed for space: Chelydra osceola (Florida snapping turtle), Kinosternon baurii (striped mud turtle), Sternotherus minor (loggerhead musk turtle), Apalone ferox (Florida softshell turtle), Pseudemys nelsoni (Florida red-bellied cooter), Pseudemys concinna (river cooter), Trachemys scripta (red-eared slider), Terrapene carolina (box turtle), Terrapene putnami (giant box turtle), Gopherus polyphemus (gopher tortoise), Hesperotestudo crassiscutata (Florida giant tortoise).  I'm currently delving through the database to find images, but they don't seem to have nearly as many images as listed examples. 

 

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/236387888.pdf. This article is about "Turtles of the Early Pleistocene Santa Fe River 1B Locality", so doesn't match exactly time-period-wise to the Peace River (which is categorized by the Florida Museum as being "late Miocene and late Pleistocene", but the paper nevertheless has useful images and insights (although some sections went right over my head in depth and detail). 

[Plantguy]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:28 AM, citronkitten said:

And better photos of #22, the possible nucal (better lighting + the recently pinned forum post about improving photos made a big difference):

I'm not getting a nuchal vibe with this one..It looks arched/curved and the sulci seem irregularly arranged/spaced to be a nuchal so I'm thinking it might be a fragment of the buttress connecting the plastron to carapace....but im not sure.!! need a real turtle expert..heres a comparative image from another turtle site that has some good diagrams..

 

https://reptilis.net/chelonia/bodyplan.html

More later

Regards, Chris 

[Plantguy]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:15 AM, Balance said:

That’s funny. 
 

Im in Florida too. Actually have a client with a couple Galapagos tortoises. They are out with the horses. Interesting fact. The tortoise are willed to the kids. They will live longer than the owner!! 
 

Gopher Torts are protected so they have kinda gotten use to their burrows not being touched. I know of a bunch. They like using the fencing poles at horse farms as supports to dig their burrows around. Interesting fact: over 350 species rely on used gopher tort burrows. So without the torts we don’t have a bunch of other species. “Keystone” is the term.
 

We have a place here in Lakeland, Fl. Circle Bar B preserve.  It has a relocation center for gopher torts. When you walk around in the main habitat area (maybe a hundred acres) of the reserve there are burrows everywhere. Makes me realize why there are so many fossil frags of shells. These things must have been as populated as rodents back in the Pleistocene. At least in the the areas of scrub flats. 
 

I dug through the box and found some other examples to add to your library. I used your research because I’ve done none. So if you find different names later update the feed and let me know. 😊 

 

Upper left:  Apalone (I know this as “pond” turtle)

Upper right: Gopherus 

Lower left:  Trachemys

Lower right: Soft shell turtle (no idea species name) 

 

 

I think one of those fragments is really an osteoderm, probably Holmesina...has an outer margin that looks depressed in a band around a polygonal shape...

Regards, Chris 

 

 

[citronkitten]

@Plantguy,

 

Thank you for your further input. There's nothing on the underside of the piece - just flat surface - so, no help there. It isn't particularly arched with only a very slight curve, although it does look like it has a more prominent arch because of how I angled it in the photos to take advantage of the lighting. It is fairly thick which I why I have it in my 'carapace' envelope rather than 'plastron'; would that make a difference in whether it were a buttress piece? Those diagrams are nice - hadn't seen those before! I'll save them to my PC drive for future reference, and will have a look at that website. 

 

Cheers!