Copal from Montagne d'Ambre in Madagascar

[Wanda8]

Good morning! I have a question. How old is the copal from Montagne d'Ambre in Madagascar? 

I recently purchased two such specimens with insect and plant inclusions and I am delighted with them. The age given in scientific literature is: 1-2 million years, 100,000 years, 50,000 to 60,000 years, 1,000 years, several hundred years, even 300 years. What is the truth, or at least which of these answers is more likely?

 

 

[Wanda8]

What kind of insect could it be? It is 2 millimeters long and has black stripes on its abdomen. Wild bee? Wasp?

Two insects (not the same insect).

[deltav2]

Copal is holocene i think

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-76808-6

"Malagasy copal (sometimes called “Madagascar copal” in the literature) originated from trees of Hymenaea and has ofen been limited to between 10,000 years old and 5 million years old (e.g.35,36); however, it is now known that this resin, in the Malagasy soils, can only be preserved for an estimated maximum of 300 years before complete deterioration ."

From the article

Edited February 19 by deltav2

[Randyw]

Madagascar copal has recently been thermal tested and given the age of 100-1000 years old by the N.I.H

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7233546/#:~:text=Thermal analysis allows an estimation,100 a) [32].

as to the insect. It could be any modern insect species. Unfortunatly your pictures are too fuzzy for more than that…

[Wanda8]

How old can the copal be in my photos? When pressed firmly with your fingers, it is hard as a rock. Even when pressed firmly with the edge of the nail, it is hard and leaves no traces. Can it become fossilized after 100 years?

 

Trees did not produce resin in Madagascar more than 100-1000 years ago? How to distinguish older copal from younger copal?

Edited February 19 by Wanda8

[Randyw]

Distinguishing copal age is difficult wich is why they performed the thermal tests. Wich are accurate. Why there’s no older amber has been a topic of debate for years.

the following quote is from a N.I.H report on copal. The copal is formed from sap from the Hymenaea trees. Also the Montagne D’ambre volcano erupted around 2 million years ago acidifying a lot of the soils around there and making a real mess of the fossil records. Anyway. Hope this helps you. And yes copal can get very hard within a few decades.

Although Hymenaeawas established in Madagascar during the Miocene, we did not find geological deposits of copal or amber in the island. It is plausible that the evolution of those deposits was negatively conditioned by the type of soil, by the climate, and by the development of soil/litter microorganisms, which inhibit preservation of the resin pieces in the litter and subsoil over 300 years. Our results indicate that "Madagascar copal" is a Recent resin, up to a few hundred years old, that originated from Hymenaea trees growing in the lowland coastal forests, one of the most endangered ecosystems in the world. The included and preserved biota is representative of that ecosystem today and during historical times. Inclusions in this Recent resin do not have the palaeontological significance that has been mistakenly attributed to them, but they do have relevant implications for studies regarding Anthropocene biodiversity loss in this hottest hotspot.

[Randyw]

Also on a side note. Copal that young degrades very rapidly in a collection. It must be kept away from temperature changes, heat, and light, (especially sunlight and u.v. Light). I’ve got some older copal (yes I know dear readers that I’ve always said I hate copal and dont really collect it but I do have a dozen pieces or so as comparative material) in my collection and it’s already showing crazing after just a few years.

[Randyw]

Oh and as a side note. Most copal collected and sold  from there is collected by inhabitants picking it up OFF THE GROUND and very seldom mined. It tests of the copal from the marketplace most tests out to 300 years old or younger. Even when the researchers dug test pits over multiple years all the copal they tested even at depth was 300-400 years or younger….

[Wanda8]

How old would you say based on these two photos?

 

He's definitely hardened. You won't scratch it with your nails. However, someone sanded and polished it. so it had to harden properly.

Edited February 19 by Wanda8

[Randyw]

With all the available information, study results, etc I would guess probably around 300 years. If I remember right all the amber tested from that area was under 300 years old. Hardness and clarity are no indication of age on these. It hardens in less than a decade. Amber and copal both have a hardness of 2-3 on the mohs scale. So they are easily worked and polished. Matter of fact it may not even needed to be polished below are 2 example that were literally pulled off the tree. Both were hard already. ( pictures are from one of the studies)

Edited February 19 by Randyw

[Randyw]

Also when i blow up your pictures I can see what I believe are the beguinning of crazing. So you’ll want to protect it as soon as possible 

[Randyw]

Actually I should expand on my answer. The whole purpose (in this context) of tree sap is the tree gets injured. The tree sends sap to the wound wich covers and hardens to protect the injury while the tree heals. It wouldn’t do any good if the sap took a long time to harden. So the sap hardens fairly quickly it’s hard to the touch really quickly. Then continues to harden in the months to come. As it hardens it loses chemicals inside and becomes copal. The fact it’s hard, beguinning to craze, and the region it’s from gives an age range for it. Copal tested from the markets and from their test pits showed that all samples were from 1 year to 300 years old at the oldest so the best age range I could give you would be 2 years to 300 years. No older.

[Randyw]

Its a nice piece though if you’re into collecting copal and it was priced right!

[Wanda8]

Dziękuję za pomoc! Cenne informacje. Widzę, że znasz się na żywicach. Czy możesz mi pomóc rozpoznać zwierzę w bursztynie? Zapraszam również innych kolegów na forum do przyłączenia się do dyskusji. Co to jest? Owad czy pająk? Czy widzisz sześć lub osiem nóg? Obiekt wykonany jest z bursztynu bałtyckiego z eocenu.

 

Dwie przednie nogi ośmiu nóg mogą wyglądać jak anteny.

 

 

Edited February 20 by Wanda8

[Randyw]

Translation:

Thank you for your help! Valuable information. I see that you know about resins. Can you help me recognize the animal in amber? I also invite other colleagues on the forum to join the discussion. What is it? Insect or spider? Do you see six or eight legs? The object is made of Baltic amber from the Eocene.

The two front legs of eight legs may look like antennae.

[Wanda8]

Thank you, I mixed up the languages.

[Randyw]

@Wanda8 insect. Those are entenna There are no joints in them so they are not legs. One is bent or broken so it kind of looks like a leg. Nice piece!

[jpc]

This is a much better photo than the first one.  I see only six legs, but I will admit, I thought spider until I counted the legs.  The front two are antennae.

[Wanda8]

If it is an insect, no one has yet deciphered the species. The hind legs are "muscled". The abdomen is hairy like a spider's.

Edited February 20 by Wanda8

[Wanda8]

These antennae may be bent legs that wrap around the head.

 

 

Edited February 20 by Wanda8

[Randyw]

Can not be spider. It has a head. Spiders do not have separate heads.

[Randyw]

[Randyw]

[Wanda8]

I believe you, so what insect? A new species?

[Randyw]

There are approximately 10,000 described species in Baltic amber. I’d have to look in my books to be more specific but here’s what I’m seeing. 2 long antennas, 3 segmented body, 6 legs, 2 large eyes, fuzzy appearing abdomen, the abdomen isn’t really hairy. Baltic insects in amber often has a powdery substance on them that appears hairy. I suspect its a species of ant or a cousin.