Reptile Head Fossil

[painshill]

... and the general answer to your "is it possible?" questions about fossil preservation is "no".

[Mathewhepplewhite]

I said I know absolutely nothing about your field of expertise, that is why I asked you in this forum for your input. The reptile guys I have spoken to are the only answers I got that made sense. I not once claimed to be anything I am not. I came here to learn something and I did. But what I will walk away with is the memory of my participation in this forum and how shallow people can be. Thank you for all the input. Judge you later.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Yeah I guess I need to brush up on my proof reading of my posts. Thanks for the education.

[Fossildude19]

Wow,... how quickly we devolve.

I am a rank amateur, with only a high school diploma, but 18 years of collecting experience.

After years of self study, and practical collecting, I can say that full body fossilization rarely happens, and that fossils do not form that way.

I can also see the side of the asker, wanting something to be what it appears to be.

What I cannot fathom, is why, when people with years of experience are asked for their opinions, their educated opinions are dismissed entirely.

I agree a healthy bit of skepticism is needed, but if you don't really want an answer, don't ask the question.

An open mind is required, on both sides.

I hope this thread can be kept civil, and that people can agree to disagree.

Regards,

Edited August 7, 2013 by Fossildude19

[Indy]

LInk

[RichW9090]

Indy, with that link, I feel like we're caught in an infinite loop! Is this our version of Groundhog Day?

Rich

Edited August 7, 2013 by RichW9090

[Mathewhepplewhite]

I listen to every conceivable explanation and make my own judgements accordingly. If 20 people tell me it's a rock then chances are it's a rock but anyone who knows me will tell you I will never put someone down to push my point. I don't expect someone with their head in the sand to see the light. Pardon the pun. Please tell me I'm wrong but the need to feel better by putting someone else down to me is the result of deep seeded feeling of inadequecy or insecurity in oneself.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Anyway the question I wish to have answered is "how does full body fossilization occur". A simple question to satisfy my lamen understanding of fossilization. Thank you.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

I have also found a large amount of rocks that are strongly attracted to my neodymium magnets. Could this be from iron ore in the rock or does it mean it is extra terrestrial.

[painshill]

It's not just about "full body"... it's also about "soft tissue" - and generally we would regard reptilian skin in that category. For something to fossilize, it needs to be buried rapidly - before scavengers get to it. In the case of perishable materials (such as soft tissue rather than exoskeleton, bone or shell) it also needs the rapid and total exclusion of oxygen and microbes which would otherwise cause it to rot. Normally that means deep sediments with acidic, anaerobic conditions such as peat bogs or deep organic mud or something similar. Or the absence of water... so soft tissue preservation may be also be the result of initial desert or cave mummification before the fossilisation process begins. It then needs to remain in those conditions long enough to become mineralised (over an extremely long period) such that the minerals gradually replace the organic material and form a "cast” of it or a replica in stone/minerals. To survive as a "full body" (3-dimensional) fossil it also needs to be robust enough to resist being flattened before, during and after that process. When a fossil is millions of years old, thousands of tons of sediments can accumulate on top of it, creating enormous pressures.

I would say again that rock looks igneous. Formed from molten magma rather than from progressively deposited sediments. If you think about the temperatures involved for rock to be molten, they’re also high enough to incinerate any organic material they come into contact with so igneous rock = no fossils and soft tissue would be the very first thing to be destroyed by igneous processes.

All of that is an over-simplification, for which I make no particular apology.

As for the magnetic rock… there are loads of rocks and minerals which have enough iron in them in the right form to be attracted to a magnet – especially a rare earth magnet. Yes, that would include many iron ores and no, magnetic does not equal meteorite. Most (not all) meteorites are attracted to a magnet but it’s a useless diagnostic test for extraterrestrial rocks because there are so many other common items with similar properties.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Thank you that was very helpful. Would it be conceivable that a reptile in and unstable mountainous region could have experienced a massive rock slide pinning the reptile in a dry airless environment for thousands of years would have the possibility to turn soft tissue into a fossil? Hypothetically speaking of course.

[painshill]

Thank you that was very helpful. Would it be conceivable that a reptile in and unstable mountainous region could have experienced a massive rock slide pinning the reptile in a dry airless environment for thousands of years would have the possibility to turn soft tissue into a fossil? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Yes... but that's a bit like me saying I just heard a motor-bike go past and it might be a 1952 Vincent Black Lightning.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

All I wanted to know was if it was possible. So thank you again. But if it was a 1951 Matchless and no one takes the time to find out we will all assume that it is a 52 black lightning because of the general consensus.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

In my experience the most unlikely outcomes often yield the greater reward.

[Auspex]

So if I was to tell you I have a background in quantum mechanics you would think I am full of xxxx because I live in cessnock and play rugby. You my friend are mistaken I do indeed have extensive experience in quantum physics and electro magnetism so get off your soap box and read the book before you judge it's cover. How do you like them apples.

I am indeed that Mathew. And I resent the judgement made against me. I became a builder when I needed a more secure source of income to support my young family. I put what was more important to me above all else. Family. I don't know how my rock led to me defending my intellect but I guess it's true that "you only see what you want to see for a fear of the unknown".

No judgment being made by me; I happen to regard carpentry to be a noble profession, and rugby to be a demanding, athletic sport.

I do take exception to the sarcasm of your "what would I know I am only a quantum physicist" comment, which is why I called you out on it.

[painshill]

All I wanted to know was if it was possible. So thank you again. But if it was a 1951 Matchless and no one takes the time to find out we will all assume that it is a 52 black lightning because of the general consensus.

Anything is possible (almost). It's theoretically possible that the Earth is flat and all of our observations are no more than an optical illusion created by alien interference. It's just that the evidence and our experiences point in another direction.

The real point about your rock is that if it were a 3D soft tissue fossil of a reptilian head it wouldn't look anything like that and wouldn't be composed of igneous material.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

I still regard myself as a physicist. Once you see life from that perspective even 20 years of building houses cannot change that. I don't tell everyone that I'm borderline obsessed with things I cannot even see or that I dumb myself down just to fit in with my mates. Because it doesn't matter who you are or what you have learnt until now but your ability to learn from every moment to come. I apologise for my comments and I have no excuse for my defensive behaviour. I'm thankful everyday for everything and everyone around me and never regret a day. If I was to do a single thing differently I would be sitting in an other dimensional being. Anyway thank you for your posts and sorry if I offended you.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Correction. I would be an other dimensional being.

[Roz]

It takes a strong person to admit to being defensive and apologize which creates respect in my eyes.. Welcome to the forum!

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Thank you.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

By the way we are playing at drain oval in cessnock at 3pm this Saturday if anyone would like to see a good hard game of rugby union.

[JohnJ]

Thanks for your apology, Matthew.

This topic and this topic are full of the pitfalls encountered when the fundamentals of paleontological science are replaced with hope and belief based on perceived possibilities. Your questions regarding how fossils are formed are good ones and I hope they drive a curiosity to understand the geologic processes.

[Missourian]

In any case, the bright yellow color is striking.

[Mathewhepplewhite]

Yes it is striking and my understanding of fossils has grown with my enthusiasm to look for more.

[Ludwigia]

It's not very often here that a thread covers 3 pages in less than 2 days, so I had to have a peek. I was starting to get a bit worried that it might end up like a debate in the Ukrainian parliament, but all involved manage to maneuver the rapids without tipping the canoe. Some of you got a bit drenched, but I'm glad to see that everyone has dried off now. Sometimes a successfully managed heated debate can forge a long-lasting relationship, so all I can say is welcome to the Forum, Matthew. As you have experienced, we're quite a diverse bunch of enthusiasts here, so that makes for a broad spectrum of views and opinions on any number of subjects, but we do basically manage in the end to keep our focus on (what each of us believes to be) the objective facts. Thanks for your honest participation and hope to hear more from you in the future.