Sacha Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Attached are photos of a find from the Peace that I've taken to the Univ. of Fl twice. The 2nd time I got an identification that I would characterize as uncertain. It appears to be the last vert. from a mammal without a tail, or the last 3 vert., which appear to be fused, of a mammal with a very fine tail as related to the spine width. It was identified as belonging to a mammoth at the University, which I assume is possible, I just didn't get a warm and fuzzy at the time. Hope the pictures are OK. Appreciate the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 All I can say is it looks like a worn vertebra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 It certainly seems like a terminal vert. From size, I would have a tough time thinking it is mammoth http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/keyword/sacrum A human tailbone is 1-4 inches, which is the same range but slightly larger than yours. I also have seen something similar in the Peace -- I always thought they were broken. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 It appears to be a coccyx - made up of at least three elements. I have no idea what animal. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 I assumed it was a coccyx, or the equivalent, just from the initial impression, but is this element an component of tailed animal skeletal structure? Do all/most mammals have this feature at the base of their spine, or would it be limited to some kind of subset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) The coccyx takes the place, generally, of an external tail. It occurs among the terrestrial mammals only in the tailless primates. So I expect that this is actually part of a sacrum. Interesting piece. Edited August 23, 2013 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Very interesting; I do not recall one ever being posted to the Forum before. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 OK, after some investigating on the topic of Tailless mammals, low and behold the one familiar animal to show up is the Capybara, the teeth of which are a fairly common find in the Peace. I could not find an image of the lower spine of a Capybara in the internet, but if the experts have better references than I can find on Google, maybe they can confirm/redirect. Sacrums of tailed mammals all have apparent contact surfaces for the tail vert., which are not apparent on this piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 If anyone knows capybara, it'll be Rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Are you sure capybara do not have tails? I thought they were just internal. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) A quick Google search found this but I don't know how accurate it is. The x-ray shows the tail as internal but still present. I don't think your bone came from a capybara. Rich will set me straight if I'm wrong though. Capybara x-ray Edited August 23, 2013 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) It just so happens I have a couple of capybara skeletons here in my home office. Unfortuntely, I have only my cellphone camera here, as the good camea is in my ofice at the museum. Capybara actually have pretty delicate caudal vertebrae, and the sacrum is fairly delicate as well - much thinner and more gracile that this fossil. Now, what the sacrum of Neochoerus would look like is another question entirely. I only know of one decent associated skeleton of Neochoerus, and I'll have to check that out. But one thing comes to mind that might fit better - I'll bet the distal sacral elements and proximal caudals of Castoroides would be quite robust. Edited August 24, 2013 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 A COUPLE Capybara skeletons and no Beaver???? Go figure that! Hope somebody out there has x-rayed a beaver lately. Hadn't thought of Giant Beaver although I have a few fragments of teeth from the Peace. Not a typical find but not unheard of. Regardless of how this pans out, I appreciate all the interest and input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I'ver got a beaver, too, just have to unearth it from the storage closet..... The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 All three of your pictures are taken at oblique angles, which makes it really hard to compare. Can you take a straight on picture of the two sides? Also, rather than a quarter for scale, please measure the fossiland provide width and length meqsurements. I'm leaning towards a worn sacrum, probably the anterior part..... The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacha Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 Thanks Rich. Greatest width 2.24" Greatest thickness 1.07" Overall Length 2.10" Left Right Top Bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) At that size, probably not Castoroides. But that is roughly the size of a modern beaver, Castor canadensis. Castor is known from the Pleistocene of Florida. Edited August 25, 2013 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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