Silurian/devonian Micros From New York

[Acryzona]

Hi Marco,

Thanks for sharing these pictures. Very cool things in the NY Devonian. I'll throw in my two cents on the ostracod ids.

Quasillites obliquus

Ponderodictya

I've seen it in a reference book but the name escapes me at moment.

Acryzona

[PA Fossil Finder]

Yeah, Dr. Karl gave me some residue as well. I posted on it a while ago. I mean, the pictures are terrible compared to these (you have awesome pics, Marco!).

HERE

[MarcoSr]

Hi Marco,

Thanks for sharing these pictures. Very cool things in the NY Devonian. I'll throw in my two cents on the ostracod ids.

Quasillites obliquus

Ponderodictya

I've seen it in a reference book but the name escapes me at moment.

Acryzona

Thank you for the id help. I knew I had at least 3 different Ostracods but had no idea as to a further id.

Marco Sr.

[MarcoSr]

Yeah, Dr. Karl gave me some residue as well. I posted on it a while ago. I mean, the pictures are terrible compared to these (you have awesome pics, Marco!).

HERE

I remember your post. After seeing it I contacted Karl. Thank you for posting.

Marco Sr.

[PFOOLEY]

So strange...I bet that was fun.

[cgodwin37]

Nathan

Thank you for your reply. I have used the 2% H2O2 from Walmart with some success on the softer shale like you say. I know it didn't attack the phosphate based shark and ray teeth. Do you know if it would attack the calcite based fossils like Ostracods, Forams etc.? I've read a little about use of 30% H2O2 in lab environments to break down shale but it wasn't to expose shark and ray teeth or Ostracods and Forams. Do you know if 30% H2O2 would attack phosphate or calcite based fossils? The articles didn't really get into the safety aspects of using 30% H2O2. Can you use 30% H2O2 in a home environment? Can you point me to any on-line articles on 30% H2O2 use that might answer my questions? I have a good amount of shale from multiple locations that I haven't been able to break down that I would love to turn to mud if I can do it safely at home and not destroy the fossils.

Marco Sr.

With hydrogen peroxide your are essentially oxidizing the organic matter in shale. It will leave the calcite and phosphate alone.

If you still have a large clay fraction try using mineral spirits or kerosene on the sample residue for 24 hours.

[cgodwin37]

Also, if the shale is calcareous you might acidize first, but that will damage non-phosphatic fossils.

[Scylla]

Conodont 12 looks like it could be a fish otolith maybe? I really don't know, but that's what it looks like.

[MarcoSr]

With hydrogen peroxide your are essentially oxidizing the organic matter in shale. It will leave the calcite and phosphate alone.

If you still have a large clay fraction try using mineral spirits or kerosene on the sample residue for 24 hours.

Also, if the shale is calcareous you might acidize first, but that will damage non-phosphatic fossils.

Thank you for the information. You also answered a question that I didn't ask. I've tried using kerosene before to try to speed up clay matrix breakdown versus multiple drying/hot water cycles. But I only left the matrix in the kerosene for a couple of hours and never saw any breakdown. So I stopped using it. I have to try leaving the clay in it for 24 hours.

Usually I'm looking for phosphate based fossils only and use a lot of 10% acetic acid especially on limestone, sandstone, etc and try to acidize first. It has worked on some shale but I have a lot of shale that it didn't. I'll have to give the 30% H2O2 a try. I was worried that it might damage the fossils. I just need to read up so I know how to safely use it at home. I know of several other great breakdown techniques for shale but wouldn't use them at home.

Marco Sr.

[MarcoSr]

Conodont 12 looks like it could be a fish otolith maybe? I really don't know, but that's what it looks like.

I really don't know much at all about conodonts. I've only searched for them a couple of times and was relying on pictures from the web to identify them. There was a type of conodont that looked like a plant leaf with a stem that looked like what I identified as conodont 12. I do see a lot of fish otoliths from the Eocene through modern which do look different to me but I haven't seen any from the Devonian that I could compare to conodont 12.

Marco Sr.

Edited December 20, 2013 by MarcoSr

[MarcoSr]

This is what I found researching 30% H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide). I would not use 30% H2O2 outside of a laboratory where all of the safety precautions were strictly followed. This is not the 3% Walmart H2O2.

This is what I found when I tried to find suppliers that I could buy 30% H2O2 from with regards to shipping it:

Oxidizer - This product is/contains a DOT regulated hazardous material. Your order will incur a hazardous materials fee. Orders shipping to HI and AK are subject to review and may incur additional shipping charges.

This item is sold and shipped to schools and businesses only. Not available to individuals or residential addresses.

This is a bulletin on H2O2. Note that this includes some of the effects of H2O2 in concentrations above 30% like 65%, and 90%. But note what can happen over 30%. I've read that when you purchase 30% H2O2 it can be 28% to 32% so this could definitely apply.

Hydrogen peroxide Chemical Properties,Usage,Production

Chemical Properties
colourless liquid

General Description
A colorless liquid dissolved in water. Vapors may irritate the eyes and mucous membranes. May violently decompose on contact with most common metals and their compounds. Contact with combustible material may result in spontaneous ignition. Corrosive to tissue. Under exposure to fire or heat containers may violently rupture due to decomposition. Used to bleach textiles and wood pulp, in chemical manufacturing, food processing, and in water purification.

Air & Water Reactions
Water soluble.

Reactivity Profile
The hazards associated with the use of HYDROGEN PEROXIDE(especially highly concentrated solutions) are well documented. There is a release of enough energy during the catalytic decomposition of 65% peroxide to evaporate all water and ignite nearby combustible materials. Most cellulose materials contain enough catalyst to cause spontaneous ignition with 90% peroxide. Contamination of concentrated peroxide causes the possibility of explosion. Readily oxidizable materials, or alkaline substances containing heavy metals may react violently. Solvents(acetone, ethanol, glycerol) will detonate on mixture with peroxide of over 30% concentration, the violence increasing with concentration. Concentrated peroxide may decompose violently in contact with iron, copper, chromium, and most other metals or their salts, and dust(which frequently contain rust). During concentration under vacuum of aqueous or of aqueous-alcoholic solutions of hydrogen peroxide, violent explosions occurred when the concentration was sufficiently high(>90%), [bretherick 2nd ed., 1979]. Hydrogen selenide and hydrogen peroxide undergo a very rapid decomposition, [Mellor 1:941(1946-1947)].

Health Hazard
TOXIC; inhalation, ingestion or contact (skin, eyes) with vapors, dusts or substance may cause severe injury, burns or death. Fire may produce irritating and/or toxic gases. Toxic fumes or dust may accumulate in confined areas (basement, tanks, hopper/tank cars, etc.). Runoff from fire control or dilution water may cause pollution.

Fire Hazard
May explode from friction, heat or contamination. These substances will accelerate burning when involved in a fire. May ignite combustibles (wood, paper, oil, clothing, etc.). Some will react explosively with hydrocarbons (fuels). Containers may explode when heated. Runoff may create fire or explosion hazard.

Marco Sr.

Edited December 20, 2013 by MarcoSr

[Scylla]

H2O2 is an inherently unstable compound and I have used it (in a lab environment) at 30% concentration. You just have to be careful and avoid large amounts. It is much safer than many other compounds I've used. That being said, I would never bring it home with me, just not worth the risk.

[MarcoSr]

H2O2 is an inherently unstable compound and I have used it (in a lab environment) at 30% concentration. You just have to be careful and avoid large amounts. It is much safer than many other compounds I've used. That being said, I would never bring it home with me, just not worth the risk.

I wish I had a lab environment to break down matrix. Even though the spec sheets on certain chemicals scare the heck out of me, there are definitely some matrix breakdown methods that would work a lot better and faster that I would feel comfortable with using in a lab. I really would like to try liquid nitrogen. I definitely can't do that at home. There are also some industrial solvents that I would like to try. I don't feel comfortable doing that at home either.

Marco Sr.

[Scylla]

I wish I had a lab environment to break down matrix. Even though the spec sheets on certain chemicals scare the heck out of me, there are definitely some matrix breakdown methods that would work a lot better and faster that I would feel comfortable with using in a lab. I really would like to try liquid nitrogen. I definitely can't do that at home. There are also some industrial solvents that I would like to try. I don't feel comfortable doing that at home either.

Marco Sr.

Oh dear, I see from the context it looks as if I broke down matrix in a lab. I did a lot of things in a lab, mostly revolving around molecular biology, but the H2O2 was used for non-fossil related research. I did not intend to mislead, sorry.

[MarcoSr]

Oh dear, I see from the context it looks as if I broke down matrix in a lab. I did a lot of things in a lab, mostly revolving around molecular biology, but the H2O2 was used for non-fossil related research. I did not intend to mislead, sorry.

You didn't mislead. The important thing is that you said you wouldn't take the 30% H2O2 home. That's what I needed to know. After seeing the spec sheets on H2O2 I would be wary to break down matrix even in a lab with it not knowing if there was something in the matrix that the 30% H2O2 would react violently with.

Marco Sr.

[squali]

http://www.grainger.com/product/12M180?cm_sp=HIO-_-HIDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ13

http://www.nutritiongeeks.com/details2.asp?Prod=hydrogen-peroxide-food-grade-4-ounce&Prodgp=53645&utm_source=adwordspla&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=53645&gclid=CMuuzNKVs7wCFStnOgodgjYAOA

Here are a couple of links to 10% and 12% H2O2. Much safer than 30% or greater.

Hair stylists and teeth whiteners are typically 10 to 12%

The funny thing is you can't ship it to countries that sell 30% over the counter.

[MarcoSr]

http://www.grainger.com/product/12M180?cm_sp=HIO-_-HIDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ13

http://www.nutritiongeeks.com/details2.asp?Prod=hydrogen-peroxide-food-grade-4-ounce&Prodgp=53645&utm_source=adwordspla&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=53645&gclid=CMuuzNKVs7wCFStnOgodgjYAOA

Here are a couple of links to 10% and 12% H2O2. Much safer than 30% or greater.

Hair stylists and teeth whiteners are typically 10 to 12%

The funny thing is you can't ship it to countries that sell 30% over the counter.

Thank you for the links. I didn't realize that you could get H2O2 in these concentrations. I'll definitely try using these concentrations on some tough shale that I have. Should work much better/quicker than the 3% Walmart H2O2. I'll try it on a small sample in case it whitens my shark teeth.

Marco Sr.

[squali]

Anything I can do to help your endeavor inadvertently benefits all of us Marco.

I have recently been thinking of a trace worm fossil 'track' that is from a

pretty hard New York Devonian matrix. I'm thinking there may be some

scoleodont jaws in the rock and was reading about your shale break down techniques.

Thank You for posting your observations.

[Mediospirifer]

Cool stuff! Somehow, I missed this post when it first came around. You've given me some more places to see if I can go digging!

Several of your conodonts (#1, 2 and 8-13) look like Polygnathus rotundilobus (aka Ancyrodella rotundiloba; the different nomenclatures are both used depending on whether the individual element is being talked about or the presumed apparatus). You also have some Polygnathus linguiformis (I'm not up for identifying the subspecies! ) in photos 3 and 6.

Here's a link to a USGS paper you may find useful: Conodonts from the Genesee Formation in Western New York. I have some North Evans or Genundewa Ls. that I'm still breaking down, and this is a very useful reference! My suggested IDs above are from this paper.

Enjoy, and keep hunting!

[MarcoSr]

Cool stuff! Somehow, I missed this post when it first came around. You've given me some more places to see if I can go digging!

Several of your conodonts (#1, 2 and 8-13) look like Polygnathus rotundilobus (aka Ancyrodella rotundiloba; the different nomenclatures are both used depending on whether the individual element is being talked about or the presumed apparatus). You also have some Polygnathus linguiformis (I'm not up for identifying the subspecies! ) in photos 3 and 6.

Here's a link to a USGS paper you may find useful: Conodonts from the Genesee Formation in Western New York. I have some North Evans or Genundewa Ls. that I'm still breaking down, and this is a very useful reference! My suggested IDs above are from this paper.

Enjoy, and keep hunting!

Thank you for the id help and the link to the USGS paper. The USGS paper looks like a great reference.

Marco Sr.

[Mediospirifer]

Thank you for the id help and the link to the USGS paper. The USGS paper looks like a great reference.

Marco Sr.

My husband tracked that (and a few other conodont papers) down when I started finding conodonts and mentioned to him that I needed a good, comprehensive reference to ID them! It's well worth sharing.

Enjoy!

[Raistlin]

http://www.grainger.com/product/12M180?cm_sp=HIO-_-HIDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ13

http://www.nutritiongeeks.com/details2.asp?Prod=hydrogen-peroxide-food-grade-4-ounce&Prodgp=53645&utm_source=adwordspla&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=53645&gclid=CMuuzNKVs7wCFStnOgodgjYAOA

Here are a couple of links to 10% and 12% H2O2. Much safer than 30% or greater.

Hair stylists and teeth whiteners are typically 10 to 12%

The funny thing is you can't ship it to countries that sell 30% over the counter.

Do you mean just safer for people or for fossils?

I know there are dangers involved for people, but is there a danger for fossils?

With 12% would it damage fossils if soaked for several hours or days?

Edited February 27, 2014 by Raistlin

[squali]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

H2O2 - Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer with a PH around 6.0.

It has been used successfully by the oil and gas industry for decades

in the break down (oxidization) of core samples to analyze microfossils.

I would simply test on a scrap piece. It would be impossible to make

a blank statement saying it is safe for all fossils. Molds and casts that have not been replaced

by a stable mineral will most likely break down. Shells and teeth should remain unharmed.