squali Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) My apologies to the original poster for the outrage that seems off target. The original poster did not commit a crime nor did he engage in immoral behavior. Virginia law clearly states that one must be told (orally or written) not to trespass. If they then continue to remain, then they are trespassing. It is the land owners responsibility to maintain the no trespassing posts. If using video to prosecute the video must show the no trespassing sign with the perpetrators Nice finds by the way. Edited December 15, 2015 by squali It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiehunter Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Squali, you and others just aren't getting it. I don't think anyone is "outraged" by what the original poster specifically said. We are outraged/PO'd at people making excuses to break the law and invade private property and then steal/destroy/impede/trash locations that they have no right to be at. If you want access to these locations pay your dues and get to know people that do have legal access or buy property that gives you access but don't be a jerk and steal it and then feign ignorance. Anybody advanced enough to find these locations has collected enough times to know the deal on trespassing "posted or not" for the state of Virginia. For you to try and make excuses for people to break the law is straight up lame. I understand the draw/addiction to fossil hunting and admit to not being perfect early in my collecting career but once corrected I put the time and effort to collect legally and ethically and my efforts have been quite fruitful while doing so. Bottom line.... if you are collecting in Virginia and aren't at a State/County/Federal Park (where collecting is legal) and you don't have permission from the private land owner then you are trespassing and you are breaking the law. Period. Do it enough times and I guarantee you you won't like where that path leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Sorry, I'm not making excuses. I stated facts. I have never intentionally trespassed. I have though, suddenly found myself surrounded by posted signs. The law requiring a warning is to ensure the perpetrator is willfully committing a crime. Perhaps every marina should have a large sign warning boaters that Virginia beaches are off limits. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiehunter Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Squali, this is turning into a longer thread/lecture than intended so this will be my last post on the subject but when you say "I have never intentionally trespassed" I find you to be a bit disingenuous if the trespassing event you described happened in Virginia. You seem to be quite aware of the laws here and likely in your own State and as previously stated the areas in question are not just "stumbled" upon. A collector would need to spend lots of time researching and then would actively attempt to get past the land based trespass signs at the known entrances that are land based. Once on the water you then you must paddle or boat for miles. You seem to think that just because something isn't posted you have a given right to go use it until someone tells you otherwise. Good luck to anyone out there explaining to the local Sherrif's Deputy/VA DGIF Officers that "it wasn't posted" when they are called to come greet you. I'm sure it will be a fun conversation. Happy (lawful) collecting to all. The best months of the year to collect are upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 The specifics of the laws (even the point where private property begins) are confusing and arcane. In the past, with less pressure being exerted by boaters, partiers, and fossil hunters, this was not a big issue. The areas have become more crowded over the years, though, and many property owners have simply had enough. It is now the case that, unless you have obtained specific permission, it should be assumed that it is not OK to be there. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otodusobliquus Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 This thread is getting ridiculous. If you want access to the beaches in the area, buy a lot in stratford harbor. My dad bought a lot there specifically to get access to the stratford harbor beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I agree hokie hunter. The 'trespassing' I described occurred several times in my occupation as a biological surveyor for gas line routing. Everyday prior to leaving for the field we would contact the land agent to make sure we had permission on various tracts of land. We had maps and gps and compasses. Not all property owners would grant permission so it was critical not to impede on their property. Unfortunately not all maps match landowners idea of property boundaries. So yes I have a pretty good idea of trespassing laws. Attacking me for pointing out that this thread is off track from the original posters display of specimens unwittingly collected is a bit much. I think you have made your point quite clear more than once. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 This discussion raises some important issues. If it continues, everyone should, please, keep it on the issues. Thanks. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) It really doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong in this discussion. Bottom line is angry landowners will eventually lead to a fossil collecting ban on the Potomac River. Then it won't matter where property lines are and who knows the trespassing laws. I really hope I'm wrong but eventually the bans will come. There are already very connected landowners (think about who typically owns waterfront property) who are pushing their representatives to resolve these problems. There are already powerful groups who would like to ban amateurs from fossil collecting altogether. This is also my last post on this matter. Marco Sr. Edited December 16, 2015 by MarcoSr 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 no worrys. I was actually trying to point out some benefit to the land owners. I was serious about the marina signs. Oh well. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneheadz Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) After reading this thread i am deeply saddened. We all know that we want the right to collect wherever we want and that trespassing is a big problem. Instead of arguing about how big a deal it is and how the land owners are pushing for stricter laws and bans, we should be sticking together to figure out what we can do to better our own situations. We all have collecting in common, so we should be joining together to make things better and maybe try and push for better legislation. I'm sure there's just as many of us as there is of them. Edited December 16, 2015 by Boneheadz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 ...I'm sure there's just as many of us as there is of them. If by "them" you mean the property owners, they've got all the nuts; it's their land. The conflict comes from some folks not respecting that. If there is a solution, it will not be reached by pushing back; the collecting community needs to police its own. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneheadz Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I completely agree but if there's no where to collect people are going to trespass. So maybe another solution is to try and help each other find legal spots to hunt or help people get permission. We just can't let our community die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Fortunately the vast majority of trespassers are not in TFF community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 People, that want to, will trespass regardless of whether there are, or are not, legal places to collect. They bear the personal responsibility and consequences of that risk. However, as is often said, ignorance of the law excuses no one. Trespassing is not the best introduction to a landowner that could potentially allow one access. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 People, that want to, will trespass regardless of whether there are, or are not, legal places to collect.... Truly. How many times have we heard the lament that "all the public areas are picked-clean?" The desire to find the undiscovered trove is powerful. The conflict it exacerbated by those who succumb to it. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Kentcarlson - there are multiple groups who run trips at Stratford Hall with permission of the Foundation. The folks sign SH's waiver slip and agree they will never come and go outside the public beach area there except with a sanctioned trip. If you are interested, PM me and I will give you contact info. They are able to go on the majority of the SH beach (about 2 miles) but there are areas closer to WMSP with the higher cliffs that even they don't go because of the cliff falls. I can tell you I personally witnessed 2 falls in fall of 2015 that were the size of a bus. Remember, a dirt clog the size of your fist hitting your head or neck from 100' up will kill you. I can also confirm SH now has cameras strategically placed along the beach/cliffs and that more than 1 person was taken off SH beach in hand cuffs this year. It's a shame they want to trespass and risk losing access for everyone. All it will take is 1 injury to a trespasser and SH will shut it down for everyone. As a side note, a kayaker or wader with a 3 gallon bucket (that has clear plastic in the bottom) can scan the bottom very well in 2' - 6' of water and find really cool stuff in the larger cobbles just off the beach. :-) Just avoid the temptation to go on the beach. SH really has tightened up their security because of trespassers AND because there have been some specimens found recently that were determined to be "of significant scientific value." They are building up their own collection for display at their Visitors' Center and for scientific study. Cheers Kentcarlson. A fellow Potomac River fossil fan Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megafever Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 that sounds like alot to remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentrcarlson Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm just back from vacation... This is all good discussion. Thanks everyone for posting. I think the key for avoiding issues with collecting in these areas in the future is to provide a strong message to any potential collectors that these areas are off limits. Prior to setting out I did a little internet due diligence and don't remember coming across any indicators (that I can remember) that the fossil collecting issues were so controversial in the area. Had I seen it, the trip easily just could have been a kayak-photo trip instead. Westmoreland state park actually states " Fossil collectors enjoy hunting for ancient shark teeth along the Potomac" in their general online material. If a "VA BEACHES OUTSIDE WMSP ARE OFF LIMITS TO COLLECTING" message was prominantly put on the Westmoreland site (or other relevant sites), I'm sure the collector traffic would be mitigated to some extent. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) I'm just back from vacation... This is all good discussion. Thanks everyone for posting. I think the key for avoiding issues with collecting in these areas in the future is to provide a strong message to any potential collectors that these areas are off limits. Prior to setting out I did a little internet due diligence and don't remember coming across any indicators (that I can remember) that the fossil collecting issues were so controversial in the area. Had I seen it, the trip easily just could have been a kayak-photo trip instead. Westmoreland state park actually states " Fossil collectors enjoy hunting for ancient shark teeth along the Potomac" in their general online material. If a "VA BEACHES OUTSIDE WMSP ARE OFF LIMITS TO COLLECTING" message was prominantly put on the Westmoreland site (or other relevant sites), I'm sure the collector traffic would be mitigated to some extent. Just a thought. WMSP had a major cliff slide probably seven or eight years ago. After the slide, state engineers determined that the cliffs were unstable. So collecting in WMSP along the cliffs is now forbidden without a state park permit. There are usually signs posted on the beach but storms keep taking them out. WMSP does have some beach areas with no cliffs where you can collect. They are enforcing the no collecting in the cliff areas. I help a USGS emeritus with vertebrate studies that he is conducting in VA. I'm on his state park permit that lets us collect matrix samples from the cliff area at WMSP. Two years ago, the person at the entrance to WMSP forgot to notify the rangers that we were in the park to collect along the cliffs. While collecting, we were stopped by an armed park ranger. If we didn't have the state park collecting permit, we would have been arrested on the spot. After that, we call the ranger office ourselves to let them know that we are collecting along the cliffs. Marco Sr. Edited January 8, 2016 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentrcarlson Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 I suppose my earlier message should be appended with "AND CLIFFS". Thanks for the anecdote. I had a similar "letting the right people know what you're doing" experience when collecting (non-fossil) cave invertebrates in Alaska for the Forest Service back in the 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneheadz Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) I wish there was some kind of permit that you could purchase including a signed document that allows you to hunt along the cliffs. I've been hunting westmoreland for 15 years and I know the dangers of collecting along the cliffs as well as anybody. Id be willing to pay 100 bucks a year and I do not care what happens to me. It's sad that they have to be so worried about this. Also, the current condition of the cliffs are pretty safe, there's plenty of beach and the cliffs aren't over hanging. This is getting out of hand. Edited January 9, 2016 by Boneheadz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 ...I wish there was some kind of permit that you could purchase including a signed document that allows you to hunt along the cliffs... As regards liability, you cannot sign away your rights, including the right to redress for injury. This makes the landowners pretty nervous. ...This is getting out of hand. The owners of the properties have all the nuts; we don't even have a hand. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneheadz Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I'm talking about westmoreland state park, not private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Boneheadz, I understand your frustration but it will only get worse as more folks ignore the posted signs. Imagine someone getting killed or severely injured..... They will lock it down and ban all access. There are already ways to access the beaches under the cliffs legally. For the record, fossil collecting at other VA State Parks (York River and Chippokes State Parks) were curtailed quite a few years ago. While you and I may be respectful and follow the rules, not everyone does. They dig in the cliffs and destroy specimens when they don't know how to quarry them. They are basically pirates after "the booty" pillaging and plundering for their own benefit. They own the property and make the rules. We either abide by them or they will block access. If you are interested in legal access send me a PM and I will give you the 3 options I know. SA2 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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