World Record Copal find...help

[Carolina]

First off I am new to this forum and I greatly appreciate any information and help this community has to offer. I'm normally more of a Paleo collector/diver but fate landed this in my lap and now i'm stumped.

I have had it verified to be Copal by a gemologist.

It is 32" long 24" wide and 10" at the thickest point. 

It weights 61 Kilograms. 

It appears to have formed from a single tree as its color is uniform through out the piece. 

I discovered it on a Beach in South Carolina a few days after Hurricane Irma blew through. 

I have tried museums for help and they just say "wow that is big" and want it donated for free, not much help there. Anyone else I have talked to tells me it's so rare that they cannot even guess at a value. Ebay is no help since all copal on there are small pieces sold for jewelry. The largest piece I have found for sale is 3 pounds... Not much to compare to. I would REALLY appreciate any help in determining even a ballpark value and searching for a museum interested in holding it as a loaned piece. I am also curious about taking it to the Tucson Gem show, for display or sale. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

 

[Macrophyseter]

Holy. . Do. Not. Sell. That.. It. Is. Priceless.

 

Now excuse me some time to regain my jaw, which has fallen deeper than @WhodamanHD when he realized someone found a megalodon tooth in their backyard. 

 

My best recommendation would be to loan/donate it to a museum to let it be known and out to good use, maybe the nearest major museum? That find is like one-of-a-kind, maybe even the largest so far. Try contacting a museum of choice and see what they could do. It might even be safer to donate it anyways in my opinion, because such I would still feel like I still owned a god-time find I discovered even if I now belongs to a museum. JUST DON'T SELL IT!!!!!

 

On other words, to the forum!

[DPS Ammonite]

Very cool. Give scientists a chance to look at this to see if this is worthy for study. Are the black parts carbonaceous matter, lignite, coal etc.?

 

See article about large amber/copal found in North Carolina after a hurricane: http://academic.emporia.edu/abersusa/hugo.htm

 

It might be rosin since Al Dente pointed out that rosin from shipwrecks occurs on the beaches to the north where is was produced:

 

[Al Dente]

I would agree with DPS Ammonite that this is human made rosin. I think the piece in the article he linked is also rosin.

[Al Dente]

Here are a couple pictures of the docks at Savannah showing barrels of rosin to be shipped out. A lot of strange stuff washes up during and after hurricanes. On Monday two naval mines washed up on Corolla and Avon beaches in North Carolina.

 

 

[Miocene_Mason]

6 hours ago, Macrophyseter said:

Now excuse me some time to regain my jaw, which has fallen deeper than @WhodamanHD when he realized someone found a megalodon tooth in their backyard. 

 

 

And it was a two big ones too! 

 

Cool find, I'd polish up the resin and display, maybe get someone to carve something in it.

[Carolina]

That was a very interesting article. The Rosin possibility came up at the beginning but its suposed to be very flamable and this piece is not. We have tried every test on it and I assure you its Copal. A few small pieces have chipped off and were used for the tests.

 

It sinks in fresh water & floats in a saltwater solution.

A red hot needle will sink into it easily and release a pine smell.

when acetone is poured on it, it becomes sticky. 

It has a refractometer reading of 1.58

Areas that have chiped off slowly turn blue over time. A natural part of its ageing process. 

The small circles on the rounded part are from the first drops of tree resin landing on the ground and hardening. 

 

[Al Dente]

38 minutes ago, Carolina said:

 

The small circles on the rounded part are from the first drops of tree resin landing on the ground and hardening. 

 

 

The round circles look like barnacle scars. Here is a close up showing the remains of a barnacle in one of them - the round one in the center. I don't think rosin is highly flamable, most of the volatiles have been cooked off during processing (turpentine is distilled from the pine sap in large stills, the leftovers become rosin, tar and pitch). 

[Bobby Rico]

Hi Carolina great find but I would if I was you, take it a curator in a natural history museum.  If it is copal what better provenance can you have than an ID from a museum that has studied it.  Also they may make you an offer to be part of there collections.

regards Bobby 

[Carolina]

Thanks Rico, I've been trying to get ahold of someone at the Atlanta Fernbank museum but no luck so far, and the Charleston museum only want it if it’s donated. 

Al Dente, i’ll admit i’m biased  and want it to be Copal. But I did take it to a Gemologist in Savannah who studied it and told me it’s Copal. 

[Kane]

We'll just have to eat some popcorn until we get the expert verdict!  As @ynot can tell you, you'll want the expert opinion of someone who is more than a gemologist.  

[sixgill pete]

Just my 2 cents. I would not even hesitate to donate it to the museum in Charleston. Unless of course you are looking to profit from it. Which to me, that is what it sounds like. As far as a value, we here on the Fossil Forum do not give the value of any fossils. As far as Macrophyseter saying it is priceless, well I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. 

 

If it truly is copal and not rosin that would need to be determined by a professional. What better place than a good and well respected museum.

[Carolina]

Lol yep it will take some time to get all sorted out. The guy I went to seems to know his stuff, he has a degree in Geology and is the appraiser for the largest diamond store in the area.

 

I would be happy to loan it. But I’m a fairly broke EMT with a one year old, so donating is not an option for me. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Carolina

[Bobby Rico]

Hi Carolina if your broke then needs must. You have your priorities and too me that is the right thing  for you to do is to sell it. So get your self to a big city museum , let them look at it and if it is copal, give them an chance to temporarily study it and display it. Then sale it afterwards. That  to me it is a win win . Also with out the right paper work I do not think you will get big money for it. Kind regards Bobby 

[Fossildude19]

Welcome to the Forum.   

 

Per the Forum Rules and Community Standards:

 

"Please understand that The Fossil Forum cannot appraise the commercial value of a fossil; this is beyond what can be done through pictures on the internet, so please don't ask." 

 

Thanks for your understanding.  

[ynot]

I have doubt as to this being copal.

It is quite clear of inclusions, whereas copal should have some inclusions (insects and plant debris) in it.

It would take a very long time for a tree to bleed out that much sap.

And all of the things that @Al Dente pointed out above.

[Carolina]

Ok, that does make sense. Does anyone here have any points of contact in the Georgia/ South Carolina museum community I could take it to? 

[ynot]

34 minutes ago, Carolina said:

Ok, that does make sense. Does anyone here have any points of contact in the Georgia/ South Carolina museum community I could take it to? 

@Boesse should be able to help with that.

[Boesse]

Thanks @ynot - I've already been contacted by @Carolina, who I encouraged to donate the spectacular specimen to our museum (Mace Brown Museum of Natural History, College of Charleston - not Charleston Museum, they are a separate entity). To be completely frank: we do not place specimens that do not belong to us on display, as 1) it does not encourage donation and 2) the museum cannot be used as a means towards enriching the value of a specimen for future sale - that would be a major ethical violation, and other museums have gotten in hot water over it.

 

Most museums don't have a budget for purchasing specimens - especially small museums like ours. Our budget is better spent on preparing and curating specimens donated to us by other collectors and our staff, as well as fieldwork. Our museum does not charge admission - which limits us, but our mission is to provide a free natural history educational experience to all South Carolinians, including low income families and children.

 

I hope all of this makes sense! To be completely honest, I'm an academic so I don't make very much money myself.

 

So, @carolina - if you would like to see your amazing specimen on display in a museum, CCNHM is your best shot: most other museums have static displays that won't be changing any time soon, whereas our displays can be quite fluid, permitting a new specimen to go out rather easily. We can't promise anything in return - but the specimen would be viewed by thousands of schoolkids, college students, and tourists every year! Several other noteworthy members of this webpage have donated specimens to us (some of which are already on display) including @Sharks of SC, @Plax, @sixgill pete, @Al Dente, @Jniederkorn - and @ynot has donated some interesting specimens to UC Berkeley at my suggestion.

[Ludwigia]

@Carolina I can understand your plight, but in the end, it didn't cost you anything to find it, so you might just make a virtual profit after all if you donate it.

[Bobby Rico]

If this is copal it belongs in a museum 100%. This is just my opinion but if museums keeps turning her away. she will eventually will find the answers she is looking for at this moment  a private sale and the copal is lost to science and the public. Sometimes I don't think you can just tell someone the right thing to do, you need to show them. Bring her into your museum and show her the complete  joy that your collection brings to hundreds of kids on a daily basis. Show her the real value of this donation to your museum is worth. In the end most people want to do the right thing but you have to give them the opportunity too. If it is reall she has got two options make some money or leave a legacy that her children's children can see and be proud of ever times they go to see this copal in its proper place a museum. I just hope she finds a museum first . 

[Plax]

On 9/26/2017 at 4:46 AM, Al Dente said:

I would agree with DPS Ammonite that this is human made rosin. I think the piece in the article he linked is also rosin.

Am also in the resin camp. More of an archeological find and should be worth something as such. I wouldn't clean the epibionts off it as it gives it provenance in a marine environment.

[oilshale]

Rosin, not copal. Too clear for copal.

With all the tests you did, it is not possible to distinguish between rosin and copal.

Copal has a melting point of around 180°C whereas rosin has a slightly lower melting point of 100 to 130°C. If it gets soft in boiling water, it is definitely rosin. But this is not a 100% test, not every rosin grade will melt under these conditions (in boiling water), only very "soft" rosin grades will do so.

Btw, rosin is not "very" flamable. I doubt you would see much of a difference in burning behavior between copal and rosin.

[ashcraft]

How many of you would donate a one of a kind diamond if you found it?  Or if you stumbled on a 3 pound gold nugget?  Or if you find a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence at a yard sale for $2, should you sell it for $4?  You doubled your money after all, can't have too much profit.  If it has value, there is nothing wrong with the finder wanting compensation.  Just because it potentially contains a fossil (a definite maybe) does not obligate anybody to give it up for the greater good.  If it was donated to a museum, and if people flocked in to see it, paying the entrance fee, isn't the museum benefiting?  If the museum employs a new preperator because of the material, isn't that person profiting from the material?  I have met museum employees who express horror when a fossil has a value assigned to it, but aren't they earning money because of the same fossils?  

 

It is a slippery slope

 

Brent Ashcraft

[jpc]

As a museum guy, I would just like to re-iterate what Boesse said...

"Most museums don't have a budget for purchasing specimens - especially small museums like ours. Our budget is better spent on preparing and curating specimens donated to us by other collectors and our staff, as well as fieldwork. Our museum does not charge admission - which limits us, but our mission is to provide a free natural history educational experience to all South Carolinians Wyomingites, including low income families and children."

 

We are often approached by people who want us to buy their spectacular finds.  We simply cant do this.  We have done some fund-raising for special projects, but it had better be a snarge good project.  A project that involves the staff and a pile of volunteers.  A T rex, or a complete mammoth, etc.  

 

I have to wonder about this being copal... with all the Turpentine industry that had existed in the Carolinas in previous centuries, that alone suggests that rosin must be looked into.