Double Trouble from Purse

[HoppeHunting]

While finishing up with my identifications from my trip to Purse State Park, I noticed two that I thought I could use some help on. The first is a nearly complete tooth that I believe to be that of O. obliquus  because it has a bit of a bourlette, but I could be wrong. It seems far too long and slender to be from Otodus, but I'm not sure what else it would be from. I'm personally hoping that I'm correct because Otodus teeth are always awesome finds, but I'll be interested to see your take on it. 

 

When it comes to the second of the two, I don't even know where to start. It's very tiny, and has a root unlike any tooth I've every seen. the protuberance on the root is about as long as the crown, which makes it look totally bizarre. The top of the tooth looks like an arched "V" or like a banana peel. The root is wide and flat. My best guess for this one would be a baby Sand Tiger shark tooth (either from Striatolamia or Carcharias), or perhaps even a pathological tooth. 

 

As always, any help would be much appreciated. Hoppe hunting!

[Echinoid]

The second tooth would probably have to be pathological - imagine how it would sit in the shark's mouth!

[Miocene_Mason]

The second is an angel shark (Squatina) tooth.

[Echinoid]

Oh whoops! My mistake - didn't realise teeth could fit in a shark's mouth that way.

[Gizmo]

  The first one looks like a Otodus.  Angel Shark,  Squatina for No. 2

 

http://phatfossils.com/species.php?species=Squatina Prima&site=(site=21 OR site=13 OR site=99)

[ynot]

The first tooth looks like a lower Carcharodon hastalis.

Agree with angel shark on the other.

[Gizmo]

5 minutes ago, ynot said:

The first tooth looks like a lower Carcharodon hastalis.

Agree with angel shark on the other.

 Only Paleocene Era at this site.

 

[HoppeHunting]

28 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

  The first one looks like a Otodus.  Angel Shark,  Squatina for No. 2

 

http://phatfossils.com/species.php?species=Squatina Prima&site=(site=21 OR site=13 OR site=99)

Thank you so much! I'm very happy with that; it's my first Angel Shark tooth! They sure are weird looking, aren't they? Apparently they're also pretty rare finds, but I could be wrong. Regardless, thanks for the help. Guess there really was a bit more variety in my Purse trip than I thought.

[MarcoSr]

59 minutes ago, Echinoid said:

The second tooth would probably have to be pathological - imagine how it would sit in the shark's mouth!

 

Below is a picture showing a few teeth in the jaw of an extant Squatina nebulosi (Clouded Angelshark).

 

 

More pictures can be seen at the below link:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/60499-extant-squatina-nebulosi-clouded-angelshark-jaw/&tab=comments#comment-644494

 

Marco Sr.

[MarcoSr]

1 hour ago, HoppeFossilHunting said:

 Apparently they're also pretty rare finds, but I could be wrong.

 

Angel shark teeth are fairly common from the Palaeocene and Eocene of MD/VA.  However, they are less common from the Miocene of MD/VA.  Angel shark teeth are much harder to find surface collecting versus searching matrix because of their relatively small size. 

 

Edit:  Your Otodus obliquus tooth is an anterior tooth.  The crown is a bit narrow or slender.  This could be because of tooth crowding in the jaw or because of a nearby jaw injury.  However, your tooth might also be a Cretolamna anterior tooth which would have a narrower crown than an anterior Otodus tooth.

 

 

Marco Sr.

[Miocene_Mason]

When your at Brownies keep an eye out for the angel shark teeth, they are fairly common there if you look for them, I’ve got two from 3 trips (well 5 but last two were iced over). Also check @MarcoSr‘s (Thanks for this Marco Sr and Family, this is very helpful) website, Here and you will have a list of possible teeth. 

[caldigger]

The sediments in STH are full of them, mid. Miocene.

[Max-fossils]

19 hours ago, ynot said:

The first tooth looks like a lower Carcharodon hastalis.

Tony, regardless of the age, hastalis teeth never have cusps. 

 

Best regards,

 

Max

 

[Gizmo]

11 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

Tony, regardless of the age, hastalis teeth never have cusps. 

 

Best regards,

 

Max

 

I have many with cusps. This is an Internet photo example.

[Max-fossils]

4 hours ago, Gizmo said:

I have many with cusps. This is an Internet photo example.

 

 

Really??? Are you sure that that is a hastalis? 

 

From what I understood hastalis never have cusps, and usually don't have serrations (sometimes very light; but most "hastalis" with serrations would be escheri instead). That is what I got frequently heard from experienced collectors. 

[ynot]

6 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

From what I understood hastalis never have cusps, and usually don't have serrations (sometimes very light; but most "hastalis" with serrations would be escheri instead).

Let's poll the experts...

@MarcoSr, @Al Dente, @siteseer, @sixgill pete.

[Miocene_Mason]

check this thread out. They do occasionally. I also think North Atlantic sites have them more often for some reason. Also @Max-fossils hubbelli’s have serrations as well.

[Max-fossils]

16 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

check this thread out. They do occasionally. I also think North Atlantic sites have them more often for some reason. Also @Max-fossils hubbelli’s have serrations as well.

Thanks Mason for that topic, it's interesting. And new to me...

I know that hubbelli have serrations... But the fact that the "late" Carcharodon lineage have cusps surprises me.

I just looked online, and apparently Isurus escheri can also have cusps. 

So now I'm really confused... What genera and what species do have cusps and which ones do not???

 

Hopefully the people Tony @ynot tagged will be of help too! (Thanks Tony btw for tagging them)

[Miocene_Mason]

@Max-fossils I remember someone saying something about “regressive genes” causing the cusps in juvenile Megalodons, maybe the same could be at play here? I don’t see what advantage cusps even had in the first place, they just weaken bite force.

[MarcoSr]

3 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

Thanks Mason for that topic, it's interesting. And new to me...

I know that hubbelli have serrations... But the fact that the "late" Carcharodon lineage have cusps surprises me.

I just looked online, and apparently Isurus escheri can also have cusps. 

So now I'm really confused... What genera and what species do have cusps and which ones do not???

 

Hopefully the people Tony @ynot tagged will be of help too! (Thanks Tony btw for tagging them)

 

On 1/29/2018 at 12:53 AM, Gizmo said:

I have many with cusps. This is an Internet photo example.

 

Like Walt, I have many C. hastalis from MD/VA with small cusplets.  Juvenile extant white sharks (Carcharodon carcharias) can have cusplets and sparse and irregular serrations on their teeth.  I have an extant juvenile white shark jaw where the teeth have cusplets.  C. hastalis was a direct ancestor of Carcharodon carcharias so it is not surprising to me that some C. hastalis teeth can have cusplets.

 

My sons and I have two types of teeth with light/sparse serrations on the crown near the root and small cusplets from the Miocene of MD/VA.  One type we believe is an early Carcharodon hubbelli and the other type we believe is Isurus escheri.

 

Marco Sr.

[Max-fossils]

@ynot @Gizmo @WhodamanHD  @MarcoSr Well, I learned something new... Thanks guys!

 

And sorry Tony for having doubted your accurate guess