ammonites.fr shuts down

[Harry Pristis]

  I am curious.  How will shutting down Herve's ammonite site hurt the aggressive pro's or encourage them to moderate their aspirations?  What's the impact?

  Wouldn't it be more effective to try to intervene with the pro's funding sources.  Pro's depend (at least in the USA) on outside funding sources to support their research, including their salaries.  Museums usually can't afford those costs, and usually take 15-20% of a grant for "administrative overhead." 

  In the USA, it's often the National Science Foundation, but other foundations may get involved.  There may be such an arrangement in France.  These funding sources may be more sensitive to controversy than the museum or university.  You may identify funding sources in the footnotes of scientific papers.

[Ludwigia]

I have the feeling that Hervé is just trying to protect himself from the aggression which is occurring in his country more than trying to encourage the aggressors to moderate their aspirations. I think he's just had it up to here with the whole situation.

[Tidgy's Dad]

This is a very sad thread. 

[rocket]

 

21 hours ago, Pixpaleosky said:

There are dangerous professionnal fanatics in France, ready to take you down because you hunt fossils on "their" land and willing to ban fossil hunting on all the territory.

It seems now better to stay hidden in our country and not to post discoveries on the web.

 

 

Same starts in Germany... hope it goes not too crazy

[rocket]

7 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

I have the feeling that Hervé is just trying to protect himself from the aggression which is occurring in his country more than trying to encourage the aggressors to moderate their aspirations.

 this is one of the stories I have heard and some other bit similar from french friends, becomes crazy...

Edited September 16, 2022 by rocket

[Ludwigia]

@Manticocerasman ? @nala ? @Coco ? @fifbrindacier ? Do you have any comments on this development?

[FranzBernhard]

1 hour ago, rocket said:

this is one of the stories I have heard and some other bit similar from french friends, becomes crazy...

What does this really mean, what is really happening? I simply don´t understand whats really going on there between pros and non-pros.

Franz Bernhard

[Ludwigia]

45 minutes ago, FranzBernhard said:

What does this really mean, what is really happening? I simply don´t understand whats really going on there between pros and non-pros.

Franz Bernhard

 

Hi Franz. The situation is somewhat complicated, but if you have some time, you could read through this topic in Steinkern for your information. There also appears to be an initiative developing which is trying to alleviate the situation. (A note to the others: You need to be able to understand German in order to read the links.)

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

14 minutes ago, Ludwigia said:

Hi Franz. The situation is somewhat complicated, but if you have some time, you could read through this topic in Steinkern for your information. There also appears to be an initiative developing which is trying to alleviate the situation. (A note to the others: You need to be able to understand German in order to read the links.)

 

International readers will be able to learn more about the topic referred to above in the below threads:

 

I also put out a Dutch version of this notice here.

Edited September 16, 2022 by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

[Coco]

Hi,

 

For years in France it has become increasingly difficult to enter quarries or construction sites. Quarries are protected by video surveillance systems, operators block entry into their quarries for safety reasons. And the construction sites are protected by grids or panels.

 

I was very surprised to read a few weeks ago on TFF that the company Lafarge (French) allows visits to his quarries in the USA, whereas back home more than 10 or 15 years ago that is no longer the case.

 

Personally I think there is a lot of collaboration between amateurs and professionals. My colleague had a directory of earth sciences on the Internet with folders containing photos by theme. It has been contacted several times by paleontologists to study a species or to inform it about a misidentification.

 

Maybe Hervé Chatelier doesn’t want to spend any more money to host his site, maybe he doesn’t have enough visits or more time to take care of it... The reasons belong to him, but it is a real loss for paleontology.

 

Coco

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Coco

[Uncle Siphuncle]

1 hour ago, Coco said:

Hi,

 

For years in France it has become increasingly difficult to enter quarries or construction sites. Quarries are protected by video surveillance systems, operators block entry into their quarries for safety reasons. And the construction sites are protected by grids or panels.

 

I was very surprised to read a few weeks ago on TFF that the company Lafarge (French) allows visits to his quarries in the USA, whereas back home more than 10 or 15 years ago that is no longer the case.

 

Personally I think there is a lot of collaboration between amateurs and professionals. My colleague had a directory of earth sciences on the Internet with folders containing photos by theme. It has been contacted several times by paleontologists to study a species or to inform it about a misidentification.

 

Maybe Hervé Chatelier doesn’t want to spend any more money to host his site, maybe he doesn’t have enough visits or more time to take care of it... The reasons belong to him, but it is a real loss for paleontology.

 

Coco

 

Coco, does Lafarge at Belmont still allow collectors?  Brett and I collected there 11 years ago as guests of the Belmont Society.  There were about 50 people collecting that day.  They only gave us about 4 hours, but it the Aalenian and Toarcian layers were so hyper productive that everyone was still making great finds up to the last minute.  It would be a shame if that quarry no longer allowed collectors.

[taj]

Quote

Coco, does Lafarge at Belmont still allow collectors?  Brett and I collected there 11 years ago as guests of the Belmont Society.  There were about 50 people collecting that day.  They only gave us about 4 hours, but it the Aalenian and Toarcian layers were so hyper productive that everyone was still making great finds up to the last minute.  It would be a shame if that quarry no longer allowed collectors.

Some . You have to be a member of another club to be invited as part of inter clubs . When I was still in France the french federation had a day for collecting there each year . Restricted number , but full day . Don't know the status now ... and of course a few lucky individuals can go there as guests of the Belmont club . But these are far and few between . BTW the quarry has a limited life expectancy (less than 10 years now probably ) , and once decommissionned , will be completely filled up and rehabilitated (unless plans have changed in the last few years).

Edited September 18, 2022 by taj

[Coco]

Hi,

 

You are right @taj I went there a long time ago now, and it was the federation that organized the annual outing, so you had to be a member of a club to participate. At the time, it was a rush of researchers who crossed the gates for the day, there were hundreds of us, and when we wanted to pee in a corner we found someone in our hole when we came back !

 

Today, I don’t know. But to my knowledge, this is the only Lafarge career that authorized paleontological research.

 

Coco

 

[FranzBernhard]

56 minutes ago, Coco said:

there were hundreds of us

LOL!! I have some pics of this kind, lets call it "ant-hill-style collecting". I am much too introvert to participate in such an event. Sometimes, one, only one, companion is ok, just to show something off. Everything else I am doing alone. No quarries etc, of course. I am a lucky guy!!
Franz Bernhard

[fifbrindacier]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:05 AM, rocket said:

One of the really best websites about cretaceous and jurassic ammonites has been removed from the net, www.ammonites.fr

This was always an inspiration to compare own finds and determine them.

I do not really know why, have heard some stories but did not talk to Herve Chatelier, the owner

And, when you look with the waybackmachine it is not possible to open former versions...

I will miss the website 

 

 

On 9/14/2022 at 11:11 AM, RuMert said:

"L'avenir de la paléontologie en France étant aujourd'hui trop aminci, ce site tire sa révérence".

"The future of paleontology in France being today too narrow, this site bows out".

It's a big loss internationally

 

On 9/14/2022 at 4:45 PM, Ludwigia said:

What a loss! I still don't quite understand why Hervé is giving up like this. His site was one of, if not the best references for Jurassic and Cretaceous ammonites in Europe and you would think that he would at least want to save it for posterity.

 

On 9/14/2022 at 6:56 PM, DPS Ammonite said:

I think that JohnJ in above message sent Herve (probably the same Herve) a notification hoping that he would look at this thread a maybe give an answer.

What ??? That's such a shame !

I wasn't aware of that, thank you Roger for calling me.

Hervé helped me several times to identificate my ammonites directly on his website. When i had a doubt or wanted to see what could be found in some areas, i always and initially went on his site.

I also linked his site often to help members identifying their finds.

 

As for the difficulties we know in France to hunt fossils that's a problem more and more arduous.

We, of course, must ask the permission to private owners but they, themselves are not totally free to accept us on their Land.

The reasons are : 

- if they are in an area of historical paleontological or geological protected areas.

- the law says that if someone gets hurt on your land, the owner is, initially considered as responsible if he hasn't warned enough his land is a private land or set enough  protections against intrusion and around the dangerous areas.

Besides, proving you made all in compliance with the law is very arduous because of the complexity of the French laws. So, most of them just shut us their doors.

A few can be aggressive, though, that's, in some occasions, can be understood because of the behaviour of some persons : i recently went fossil hunting on a private land with the permission of the owner. She used to accept with everybody but finally refused because some people went with too much cars and left their rubbishes. She accepted with me because we had a friend in common.

 

We still have the right to hunt on the public domain but less and less freely because the protected areas or sites of national interest are more and more numerous :

at the beginning of October i'll be for a week at the famous site of the Vaches Noires. I never went there, it's a 800 km trip for me and, if it is still possible, i'll be back there next year.

That second trip will have to be the last possible because, if now it is possible to gather fossils on the foreshore, the site will be soon classified and all gathering will be forbidden except for the educational or professional projects.

 

But there is also another reason, more ideological : there are more and more people who are preoccupated by ecology and that's a very good thing. Except that most of the persons think that the hunters (in general) are devils.

That's why a lot of people think that by hammering rocks we destroy the nature : i heard people say that we help the collapsing of the cliffs by hammering and reproaching me for making easy money (imagine me at the very foot of a hundred meters cliff hammering a bit of pelecipod full of hard matrix to make easy money).

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by fifbrindacier

[fifbrindacier]

16 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

@Manticocerasman ? @nala ? @Coco ? @fifbrindacier ? Do you have any comments on this development?

 

17 hours ago, rocket said:

 this is one of the stories I have heard and some other bit similar from french friends, becomes crazy...

 

14 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

International readers will be able to learn more about the topic referred to above in the below threads:

 

I also put out a Dutch version of this notice here.

 

On 9/15/2022 at 7:31 PM, Pixpaleosky said:

I totally understand him and I am considering the same with my small website. There are dangerous professionnal fanatics in France, ready to take you down because you hunt fossils on "their" land and willing to ban fossil hunting on all the territory.

It seems now better to stay hidden in our country and not to post discoveries on the web.

This science is living sad days.

There existe a petition against thapt project on the FFAMP's site and links to the project of classification : https://www.ffamp.com/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=2704&mnuid=2336&tconfig=0#z2

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 hours ago, fifbrindacier said:

There existe a petition against thapt project on the FFAMP's site and links to the project of classification : https://www.ffamp.com/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=2704&mnuid=2336&tconfig=0#z2

 

This same petition and translated text is available here:

 

 

[FossilNerd]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:00 PM, Fossildude19 said:

Please, let's not have this discussion descend into a blanket of condemnation of all professional paleontologists. 

Not all of them believe that amateur collectors are evil.

It is a shame, and bad enough, that an excellent resource has been lost. 

To help drive home Tim’s point about how not all professional paleontologists dislike amateur collectors...

 

A recent post about an article from our own @Boesse regarding how amateur collectors are essential to the science and how we should all work together. Link below.

 

There are many other professionals working in the field of paleontology who frequent the forum and encourage us amateurs, this recent article about one of them just happened to come to mind. 

 

 

For those that don’t know, Robert Boessenecker is a professional paleontologist associated with the College of Charleston in South Carolina and has been a member of TFF since 2008. His knowledge of marine vertebrates, especially marine mammals, has been invaluable here on the forum.

 

https://geology.cofc.edu/about-the-department/faculty-and-staff/boessenecker-robert.php

Edited September 19, 2022 by FossilNerd

[FranzBernhard]

Just to add to the above. In Austria, a project called "Fossilfinder" is run by the Natural History Museum in Vienna:

Fossilfinder (in English)

Its a citizen scientists project.

I am not participating, its too formal for me, but I report from time to time informally to A. Lukeneder.

Franz Bernhard

 

 

 

[fifbrindacier]

I had a great discussion with a Paleontologist specialized in Cambrian and Precambrian Poriferae who helped me a lot writing an article about sponges by sharing with me documents and informations on his own researches and theories as well as his colleagues', @Spongy Joe.

I'm member of three paleontology and geology clubs : in one the President is a Geologist, in another the President is a Paleontologist and Professor of University and in our members we have one of his students.

In the third club one of the members is also a Paleontologist and Professor of University, he speaks a lot because his very enthusiastic and love sharing with other people, and he loves listening amateurs' experiences because he considers that the non academic point of views opens the mind. As he says : a scientist tend to work with his head when an amateur tend to do it with his heart.

Edited September 17, 2022 by fifbrindacier

[fifbrindacier]

That subject is as old as the Paleontology (term created in 1822 by Henri Ducrotay de Blainville). I'm referring to the problems Mathurin-Marie Rouault (born in 1813) encountered with some of his professional contemporaries.

[marguy]

7 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

A recent post about an article from our our own @Boesse regarding how amateur collectors are essential to the science and how we should all work together

in my statement to the public inquiry concerning the black cows and Calvados reserve, I quoted the Boessenecker paper  and the proportions of amateur and professional contributions. (amateur myself, I collaborated with professional paleontologists who described new species from our findings, but unfortunately not all researchers have the same mode of operation)

[fifbrindacier]

Yves Coppens was an amateur before being a scientist.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

11 hours ago, fifbrindacier said:

Yves Coppens was an amateur before being a scientist.

 

I think many a professional palaeontologist starts off that way: it's the best way to inspire and nurture a developing interest. Much of the same problems plague archaeology, though there too you see that many prominent archaeologists first started as amateurs. Colin Renfrew, now a fervent advocate against the antiquities trade and private ownership started off his interest with a private collection, for example (if I remember correctly). These issues are, ultimately, very conflicted...

[fifbrindacier]

4 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Colin Renfrew, now a fervent advocate against the antiquities trade and private ownership started off his interest with a private collection, for example (if I remember correctly). These issues are, ultimately, very conflicted...

That's a perfect example of contradiction !