Ammonite Found On Mars By Msl In Sol551

[Auspex]

ok so I edited the pic a bit take a look, is that a brac on the right?

0551MR2233051000E1_DXXX.jpg

No, not to my eye.

[Missourian]

ok so I edited the pic a bit take a look, is that a brac on the right?

0551MR2233051000E1_DXXX.jpg

No, but it is a rounded pebble embedded in the rock, which is quite interesting in its own right.

[MarqusandDad]

well now something else cought my eye, center of screen below the trilobite is a square with a star on it, what is going on here???

[AmazoniteJosh]

Don't forget the tiny T-Rex in the left corner! XD

(Photo above)

Edited April 18, 2014 by AmazoniteJosh

[AmazoniteJosh]

Krispy Kreme anyone?

[Missourian]

Don't forget the tiny T-Rex in the left corner! XD

(Photo above)

Do you mean the one near the horned toad or the one next to the pocket watch?

[Auspex]

well now something else cought my eye, center of screen below the trilobite is a square with a star on it, what is going on here???

123.JPG

Pareidolia

[Mediospirifer]

If a rock really was found on Mars that contained recognizable fossils that match known Earth families, I think the working hypothesis would be that the piece had been ejected from Earth some time in the past by a large asteroid impact, and arrived on Mars as a meteorite. At least until it could be examined in more detail than I expect Curiosity to be capable of. Closer images and chemical sampling are possible, and might prove very interesting. Another test to rule out a terrene meteorite would be for Curiosity to examine the surrounding rocks. If most of the rocks in a large area match the rock, then it isn't a later arrival.

I haven't tried zooming in beyond the normal resolution of the image. If you try it, keep in mind that the imaging software will probably create details that don't really exist when you go beyond the actual pixel resolution. Combine that with pareidolia, and you can think you see all kinds of things in a picture!

[Aurelius]

I'm sure this is nothing at all, these odd-looking things often turn out to be less interesting when viewed up close (just like here on earth, where I regularly mistake boot-prints, random mud and bird excrement for ammonites).

But it would be unbelievably awesome to find an ammonite on mars, even if it was just ejected from earth in an impact.

[Mediospirifer]

But it would be unbelievably awesome to find an ammonite on mars, even if it was just ejected from earth in an impact.

Absolutely! Such a rock would be the first comfirmed terrene meteorite. We know they can happen in theory, and I think most researchers expect to eventually find some on the Moon, but none have been found yet.

The main test (that I don't know whether Curiosity is equipped to perform--I don't think so) to distinguish an Earth rock from one originating elsewhere in the solar system is an oxygen isotope ratio (OIR) test. Most of Earth's oxygen has 8 neutrons with its 8 protons(¹⁶O), but a tiny amount has 9 or 10 neutrons (¹⁷O or ¹⁸O). Meteorites have a different ratio of ¹⁷O:¹⁸O than Earth rocks do, with the exception of lunar meteorites and a few that are thought to have come from near Earth's orbit.

We know the Martian OIR because the Viking landers were able to test the Martian atmospheric chemistry, and meteoriticists here found trapped air bubbles in a meteorite that matched it. This isn't the same as the OIR, but they were then able to test that on the identified martian meteorite, and use that number to identify more.

There's only one other body in the solar system that we can say we know the OIR for: the asteroid Vesta. That was hypothesized from spectroscopy to be the origin of the HED meteorites, which all have the same OIR (and are therefore presumed to be from the same parent body). Vesta shows the spectrographic signature for the HED rock types, unlike most asteroids. Vesta also has a huge crater on its south pole, which is big enough to have once contained all of the other asteroids that show the same spectroscopy, and all of the known HED meteorites, with lots of room to spare. The chemistry of Vesta's surface was recently confirmed by the DAWN space probe, and it is considered settled that Vesta is the parent body of these meteorites.

Science is fun!

[Wrangellian]

terrene?

[Missourian]

terrene?

Earth meteorite on Mars.

It is an utterly fascinating subject to think about. Like, what if a chunk of earth, along with various microbes, was blasted off in the Precambrian and then preserved in interplanetary space and on Mars, with no alteration that would otherwise have happened on Earth. Would there be samples scattered around on Mars that could be studied (if found)?

And then there are the science fiction possibilities, e.g. think of a 'Precambrian terrene Andromeda strain'....

Edited April 20, 2014 by Missourian

[Wrangellian]

Earth meteorite on Mars.

...

Thanks... (that wasn't supposed to be 'terran'?)

[open768]

It is why they are there, and it cannot have escaped their notice.

Pretty sure it would make the news if they thought they had something.

Unfortunately this does appear to have escaped their notice , or it is ignored as the observation doesn't fit the theory that Mars is and was essentially incapable of supporting life.

[Wrangellian]

And then there are the science fiction possibilities, e.g. think of a 'Precambrian terrene Andromeda strain'....

Yes.. I have wondered whether, if we could travel back in time, would we quickly succumb to microbes in the ancient environment that would be totally different from the ones around today that we are (mostly) immune to?

[Missourian]

Yes.. I have wondered whether, if we could travel back in time, would we quickly succumb to microbes in the ancient environment that would be totally different from the ones around today that we are (mostly) immune to?

Or worse yet, the microbes on our skin wiped out everything at that time. We'd need Doc Brown's advice.

[open768]

If a rock really was found on Mars that contained recognizable fossils that match known Earth families, I think the working hypothesis would be that the piece had been ejected from Earth some time in the past by a large asteroid impact, and arrived on Mars as a meteorite. At least until it could be examined in more detail than I expect Curiosity to be capable of. Closer images and chemical sampling are possible, and might prove very interesting. Another test to rule out a terrene meteorite would be for Curiosity to examine the surrounding rocks. If most of the rocks in a large area match the rock, then it isn't a later arrival.

I haven't tried zooming in beyond the normal resolution of the image. If you try it, keep in mind that the imaging software will probably create details that don't really exist when you go beyond the actual pixel resolution. Combine that with pareidolia, and you can think you see all kinds of things in a picture!

Pareidolia that old chestnut - its is a catch-all populist unscientific crutch upon which pseudo-skeptics rest to be essentially dismissive .

[piranha]

Pareidolia that old chestnut - its is a catch-all populist unscientific crutch upon which pseudo-skeptics rest to be essentially dismissive .

The sensational title of this thread certainly qualifies in the 'unscientific' realm as well.

[Auspex]

Pareidolia that old chestnut - its is a catch-all populist unscientific crutch upon which pseudo-skeptics rest to be essentially dismissive .

I quote from our Rules and Community Standards:

...we are fundamentally a science-based forum, and topics promulgating metaphysical, paranormal, or pseudo-scientific topics will be out of place...

.

This topic is not the first "fossils on Mars being covered-up by authorities" screed that we have hosted, and it will not be the last, but none before have ended well, as those grinding this ax always resort to straw man tactics when resistance is met. Have you any actual, irrefutable evidence to support your theories?

[Mediospirifer]

Thanks... (that wasn't supposed to be 'terran'?)

No, 'terrene' is the technical term for an Earth-origin meteorite, wherever it might be found, even if it fell back to Earth. We just haven't found any yet.

There are probably lots of terrene meteorites on the Moon. I'd like to see someone bring one back that dates from the Late Heavy Bombardment! We've seen reports that the environment during the Hadean era could have supported the development of life; the Moon probably has the rocks that could show whether or not it did.

Open768, pareidolia is very much a real phenomenon. It's the name we have for overactive pattern recognition. What else do you call it when you see shapes in clouds that look like animals or people? The tendency to see things even has survival value in a wilderness environment--the person who thinks he sees a tiger hiding under the bush is likely to live longer than the one who doesn't.

[Mediospirifer]

Auspex, I composed my last post before I saw yours come up. I hope my comment wasn't problematic.

[Mediospirifer]

The $2.5 billion rover was sent to Mars to search for evidence of conditions conducive to potential early life, if not signs of life (if not actual life....). There is a large number of extremely qualified scientists and experts working on the rover science team. The rest of anyone interested in the subject can pore over the data sent back by the rover. Any one of these people, if they saw something, would raise their hand and say "hey, that may be something". Once that happens, before it appears on the web, there would be extremely intense scrutiny over the evidence, which would certainly be embargoed for some time by the authorities since it would be an extraordinarily important discovery with major philosophical implications. In time, there would be a major announcement by NASA and institutions affiliated with the mission.

I thought all or the Mars rover data and photosets were posted to the rover websites as soon as possible, since the rovers are publicly funded?

[Missourian]

I thought all or the Mars rover data and photosets were posted to the rover websites as soon as possible, since the rovers are publicly funded?

Oops, you caught me in delete-edit-repost.

I just remembered that the images are released almost immediately. I will say that if anything significant turned up, things would move pretty quickly.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Missourian

[Auspex]

Here, open768, in a post on another forum, you distill the question into one with only two opposing viewpoints:

What if life in the universe is not just a statistical probability? That the statistics of civilisations have risen and fallen on other planets is a lot closer to home? What if when Mars was in the habitable zone, millions of years ago that there too was a civilisation? Wouldnt that be amazing? Or do we still believe we are the centre of the universe and and that intelligent life could only have evolved on earth in a universe that is billions of years old.

.

This kind of leading tactic is another classic of the promulgators of pseudo-scientific causes, which attempts to discredit by association any scientific parsing of the purported evidence. It is not scientific argument, it is smoke.

[Mediospirifer]

Oops, you caught me in delete-edit-repost.

I just remembered that the images are released almost immediately. I will say that if anything significant turned up, things would move pretty quickly.

I guess that happens when people are actively watching and commenting! Along with cross-posting.

I do agree that if anything world-shaking appeared in a picture, the researchers would immediately come out with a statement to minimize the excitement until they could tell what was going on. With this image, I'd expect to see a press release saying that it's most likely an imaging artifact, and they'll have the rover look more closely.