LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bradley Flynn said: I'm not sure on the geology of the area you are finding these, but I did a little searching and found something interesting or maybe just another miss. http://sciencythoughts.blogspot.com/2014/08/teeth-and-osteoderms-of-sebecosuchian.html?m=1 I’m on the same site lol. I’m in line with that thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bradley Flynn said: I'm not sure on the geology of the area you are finding these, but I did a little searching and found something interesting or maybe just another miss. http://sciencythoughts.blogspot.com/2014/08/teeth-and-osteoderms-of-sebecosuchian.html?m=1 It certainly looks enough similar, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Full source paper https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/volume-60/issue-3/app.00072.2014/A-Sebecosuchian-in-a-Middle-Eocene-Karst-with-Comments-on/10.4202/app.00072.2014.full Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Interesting...but, these do not seem to share the texture of boney material. @Antonjo can you get a few sharp closeups of pieces showing the best detail? Have you found other vertebrate material in this area? 1 hour ago, Antonjo said: Thanks for advice @LabRatKing I will try it when I find unglazed tile, and I'll post pictures of it. Today I went on the same location, and find lots of very similar samples, all of which was on very narrow area, maybe 10 m2. Further than that, I couldn't find any.. Here are few more photos The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 I’m thinking Eocene karst and the data from the area makes this a solid lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, Bradley Flynn said: I'm not sure on the geology of the area you are finding these, but I did a little searching and found something interesting or maybe just another miss. http://sciencythoughts.blogspot.com/2014/08/teeth-and-osteoderms-of-sebecosuchian.html?m=1 Not a bad idea " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, LabRatKing said: I’m thinking Eocene karst and the data from the area makes this a solid lead. I see the similarities, but there are clear differences in the curvature and 'keel'. 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 They look too odd and similar to be non fossils. What are they made of, chert? Will a steel knife scratch them? I think that I see some spongy bone structure. 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, JohnJ said: Interesting...but, these do not seem to share the texture of boney material. @Antonjo can you get a few sharp closeups of pieces showing the best detail? Have you found other vertebrate material in this area? I will try to take detailed photos tomorrow. I'm not expert, and this was a totally random find, but I will ask someone who might know 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 @LabRatKingfunny we were reading same material at the same time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 What could be the diffrences against outer sides of a decomposed septarian concretion, naturally eroded and/or bioeroded 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, JohnJ said: I see the similarities, but there are clear differences in the curvature and 'keel'. Agreed. More research is needed for sure. I think an acid test and some streaks may help. I doubt a tongue test would help with these. Hopefully those papers I requested will be available tomorrow! These have me stumped due to the smooth nature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 @Antonjo the back side of a floor tile will work or even the unglazed edge on the bottom of an old mug or plate will work too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Antonjo said: Thanks for advice @LabRatKing I will try it when I find unglazed tile, and I'll post pictures of it. Today I went on the same location, and find lots of very similar samples, all of which was on very narrow area, maybe 10 m2. Further than that, I couldn't find any.. Here are few more photos Seeing these photographs I briefly had the idea that may be these could be prehistoric stone blades. The stone would appear to have the right consistency for it, the blades have the right curvatures, and ir would explain the great number of these objects found in the same place (but would require the dating of the sediment to be incorrect, or the artefacts to have collected out of a different aged level/stratum). However, lacking the hallmark shockwave bump and - moreover - in some most cases not being smooth at the back, makes me doubt this hypothesis... I'm still not convinced these are fossils, but, right now, I think Bradley Flynn's suggestion sounds the most promising (but may be that's just because I had this thought - i.e., them being some type of scute - before as well)... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Have you seen the semicircle pattern of one side in more than one specimen posted by the O.P. ? Has the ?internal median ridge a strange curvature? ...has it a double wall pattern? ... 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 If it was just one or two pieces, I’d have written these off as flowstone, but with this many specimens, personally I’d get the sifter out in that area. I wish I could get a slice and a scope on these. truthfully, might be worth taking a few of these to the Uni or museum. The paleontology for that area is slim to none as far as I can find abusing my academic access thus far. I’ve tapped in the evolutionary ecology specialist I work with as she has connections in paleontology and zoology I don’t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 8 hours ago, LabRatKing said: @Antonjo the back side of a floor tile will work or even the unglazed edge on the bottom of an old mug or plate will work too! Thanks for the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 7 hours ago, LabRatKing said: If it was just one or two pieces, I’d have written these off as flowstone, but with this many specimens, personally I’d get the sifter out in that area. I wish I could get a slice and a scope on these. truthfully, might be worth taking a few of these to the Uni or museum. The paleontology for that area is slim to none as far as I can find abusing my academic access thus far. I’ve tapped in the evolutionary ecology specialist I work with as she has connections in paleontology and zoology I don’t. I have friend in natural history museum, and send him photos too, he'll be contacting expert on Zagreb university and thank you very much for your engagement @LabRatKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Well, if these truly are crocodyliform osteoderms, then I'd say the proof is in the pudding, and you should go out to find more remains of these animals. May be not bones, if the soil doesn't allow their preservation. But where osteoderms survive, teeth should as well... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Well, if these truly are crocodyliform osteoderms, then I'd say the proof is in the pudding, and you should go out to find more remains of these animals. May be not bones, if the soil doesn't allow their preservation. But where osteoderms survive, teeth should as well... My friend told me the same, I will try to, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Today I stopped by at the location, and collected some more samples. I didn't find anything like tooth, but I found one piece which has it's other half Here are the photos @LabRatKing @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 I tried to make a streak on tile, I don't know if I done it properly. The streak is powdery.. Photos were taken with mobile phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Antonjo said: Today I stopped by at the location, and collected some more samples. I didn't find anything like tooth, but I found one piece which has it's other half Here are the photos @LabRatKing @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Hah! And here I was thinking that suggestion wouldn't work because of the result turning out too flat! Nice find! This should at least rule out flowstone and osteoderms, then. But what it could be otherwise, I don't know... Seems too symmetrical for holes made by plant roots. But may be it could be some kind of animal borings or burrows? One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the total number of these would have been less than the total fragments currently recovered, as multiple of those fragments would have gone in to making one of these... Then again, even cutting the amount of them you found in half still leaves a huge number. When looking at these nicely detailed new shots you took, I'm reinforced in my belief that this is just stone, not bone. But the channels might still be some kind of trace fossil... May be bivalves boring into the prehistoric sea bed? As an aside, I just realised you had mentioned this being a marine palaeoenvironment before, which, I think, makes finding a crocodile there rather unlikely (though not impossible). It would also make finding semi-articulated remains (meaning, remains closely located together) less likely. So searching for a tooth at the location wouldn't have had much luck to begin with. Anyway, not that this all matters now any more... 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, Antonjo said: I tried to make a streak on tile, I don't know if I done it properly. The streak is powdery.. Photos were taken with mobile phone Looks like a rather chunky, powdery streak to me. Definitely softer material than ceramics, chalky white and coarse grained. This, I believe, falls into @LabRatKing's "possible fossil" group, though it could, I think, still be some kind of chalk... 2 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 38 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Looks like a rather chunky, powdery streak to me. Definitely softer material than ceramics, chalky white and coarse grained. This, I believe, falls into @LabRatKing's "possible fossil" group, though it could, I think, still be some kind of chalk... Agreed. They are harder than I expected which is a good thing. I’m still wracking my brain with these though. The new specimens make me lean back towards a geologic, but we shall see! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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