Antonjo Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 Here it is.. I burned it above candle, and when it catches the flame the smoke is partially black, but when flame fade out, the smoke is white. It has some unspecified odour not too intense, not sure if I can tell if it's of something synthetic 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertramp Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 My thought was that it could be something “man made” or related to human activity s.l.. Before the last post from Antonjo, an hypothesis that came to my mind was related to a rather frequent construnction technique in the italian countryside in the past and, I think, also beyond the Adriatic Sea (in Italian: cannucciaia, canniccio…don't know how to translate in English). This hypothesis doesn’t seem to feet with the latest evidences. So: a "stucco“ infill (or a wire insulation, as other said)?. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, supertramp said: My thought was that it could be something “man made” or related to human activity s.l.. Before the last post from Antonjo, an hypothesis that came to my mind was related to a rather frequent construnction technique in the italian countryside in the past and, I think, also beyond the Adriatic Sea (in Italian: cannucciaia, canniccio…don't know how to translate in English). I think what you're referring to is what is known in the English-speaking world as "wattle and daub": reed or wicker wall-construction covered by loam or clay. I agree, however, that, though a good idea I should have thought of myself, it's not likely the case here, as the impressions in the find-pieces seem both to big and too straight/regular. Could still make it a modern variant of the technique, of course, but at least not an ancient application... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 @Antonjo I think we are getting close to a solution. Few questions/tests: Does the material react (fizzy bubbles) from vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, or chlorine bleach? Does it remain intact when soaked in water overnight? Noticed any bits of rusted metal about? Does it appear to expand when it is burning? That the site is near agriculture, I think I have a hypothesis... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 It appears that old recipes for stucco contained various organic substances (including wine, beer and whiskey) that may account for the partial burning. https://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preserve/briefs/22-stucco.htm The composition of stucco depended on local custom and available materials. Stucco often contained substantial amounts of mud or clay, marble or brick dust, or even sawdust, and an array of additives ranging from animal blood or urine, to eggs, keratin or gluesize (animal hooves and horns), varnish, wheat paste, sugar, salt, sodium silicate, alum, tallow, linseed oil, beeswax, and wine, beer, or rye whiskey. Waxes, fats and oils were included to introduce water-repellent properties, sugary materials reduced the amount of water needed and slowed down the setting time, and alcohol acted as an air entrainer. All of these additives contributed to the strength and durability of the stucco. 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, DPS Ammonite said: The composition of stucco depended on local custom and available materials. Stucco often contained substantial amounts of mud or clay, marble or brick dust, or even sawdust, and an array of additives ranging from animal blood or urine, to eggs, keratin or gluesize (animal hooves and horns), varnish, wheat paste, sugar, salt, sodium silicate, alum, tallow, linseed oil, beeswax, and wine, beer, or rye whiskey. Waxes, fats and oils were included to introduce water-repellent properties, sugary materials reduced the amount of water needed and slowed down the setting time, and alcohol acted as an air entrainer. All of these additives contributed to the strength and durability of the stucco. Wow! That sounds like a veritable witch's brew! I always wonder how people figured out these complicated kinds of recipes - especially since stucco has been around for a long, long time... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 10 hours ago, LabRatKing said: @Antonjo I think we are getting close to a solution. Few questions/tests: Does the material react (fizzy bubbles) from vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, or chlorine bleach? Does it remain intact when soaked in water overnight? Noticed any bits of rusted metal about? Does it appear to expand when it is burning? That the site is near agriculture, I think I have a hypothesis... I can't remember any rusted metal parts nearby, and it doesn't expand or make any noise when burning (it takes some time to catch the flame, and it extinguish fast) I will try that with vinegar or peroxide, and soaking overnight, and report results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.cheese Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 This an interesting thread! I said scapula earlier and now somehow I really don't think it is! I am thinking it might be some kind of render/stucco and the lines are from the joins in the courses of bricks that it covered? The flatter stucco would break easily into tiny pieces if you were stripping old material off to re-render the wall, and the bits in the joints are the harder bits to remove and also stay in one piece as the groove makes it thicker and sturdier. Maybe........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 I suspect that this may be what is known as firewall or water block putty. It is used to prevent fires from getting through barriers in buildings and ships and used to prevent chafing of wires and tubing in heavy equipment like would be used in an olive grove. There are all sorts of uses for putty like this and many different kinds. There are types used in aircraft and military equipment too. As it ages it dries out becomes brittle, and falls away. However some basic materials tests as described will help dial it in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellwellwell Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 This is a very interesting topic! Just a thought, any chance it could be, very old beeswax, or some other insect excretion? Could this be the remnants of a hive of some kind? I’m excited to see the resistance to water and other test results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share Posted October 15, 2020 On 13. 10. 2020. at 10:24 PM, LabRatKing said: @Antonjo I think we are getting close to a solution. Few questions/tests: Does the material react (fizzy bubbles) from vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, or chlorine bleach? Does it remain intact when soaked in water overnight? Noticed any bits of rusted metal about? Does it appear to expand when it is burning? That the site is near agriculture, I think I have a hypothesis... @LabRatKing I tried to pour some lime remover on it and it reacted with some very small bubbles. The piece I put in water overnight seems it didn't change volume or consistency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.cheese Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 The plot thickens! I expected it to at least get softer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Antonjo said: @LabRatKing I tried to pour some lime remover on it and it reacted with some very small bubbles. The piece I put in water overnight seems it didn't change volume or consistency. Well, I have serious reason to believe now that what we have here are the remnants of some cabling. In particular, a cable filling compound, similar to the putty I described previously. This deduction explains many of the features we are seeing. The criss-cross patterns on the "exterior" surface are likely from a metallic mesh overwrap and the "internal" side channels are where the probably four, conductors went through. Something like this, just a very large gauge: I should note this picture is reference only, as it shows a fiber based filler. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 If I have deduced properly, this substance should degrade readily in an acid and more slowly in household ammonia. Generally it is a Magnesium Oxide based putty with various forms of calcium and a polymer added. The polymer is what burns, the other materials leave behind the gray ash you saw and this material, when weathered behaves as shown in the tile test. While I am by no means an expert on non-north american electrical standards, I feel confident this substance or a version of it is the most likely candidate. i suspect these are the remnants of a large gauge 4 conductor cable that may have been stripped and used as a soil amendment, a common practice in many areas of the world. This substance works great in stabilizing pH and is commonly sold as a antacid in humans (milk of magnesia). Here is a picture showing cable that uses the putty form, you can see it as the white-gray stuff outside the fiber wraps and inside the outer sheath: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share Posted October 15, 2020 Well, @LabRatKing I must confess this is by far most convincing explanation for me. I was hoping it could be some interesting fossil, but at least it was fun to participate in this discussion Ofcourse it doesn't mean it must be over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Antonjo said: Well, @LabRatKing I must confess this is by far most convincing explanation for me. I was hoping it could be some interesting fossil, but at least it was fun to participate in this discussion Ofcourse it doesn't mean it must be over Agreed! Nothing like some hardcore detective work to get the brain fired up! Do you happen to know the ingredients of your lime remover? usually it is an acid, though there are some that use other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonjo Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share Posted October 15, 2020 24 minutes ago, LabRatKing said: Do you happen to know the ingredients of your lime remover? As main ingredient it's listed <5% nonionic surfactant, and among others some unorganic acids (both nonspecified) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, Antonjo said: As main ingredient it's listed <5% nonionic surfactant, and among others some unorganic acids (both nonspecified) Excellent. That means it is basically some soap and citric acid most likely. In my mind that supports the mineral putty cable filler hypothesis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.cheese Posted October 17, 2020 Share Posted October 17, 2020 Do you know what, that sounds good to me! Explains the line and the crosses etc. Well done that man! (99.9% sure!)! Ha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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