Adventures in Balance. A Peace River fossil journal.

[Balance]

Tiny Humans, Tiny Teeth - Best kinda day! 
 

Finished my work appointments about noon. With the kids out of school we all decided to go play on the river for a few hours and enjoy the free time outside the house. 
75 deg out and windy with sunny skies and water temps well into the 60’s.  
 

My daughters are 9 and 11. So traditional wading , digging and sifting is a little above their pay-grade yet. Especially in the water temps we have right now. Our river afternoons are more sandbar hopping and exploring the mouths of the various creeks along the river.
 

The excitement is not lost on me. I have not forgotten that it takes about 30 seconds after you lose sight of the boat ramp to be completely immersed in the jungle that is the peace river when you’re a little kid. Add in it’s a weekday and after a couple two three miles down stream,  we might as well have been in the Amazon.

 

 

Time flys. Used up 75% of the battery reserve but we made it back just before sunset. Our treasures for the day were a colorful tiny teeth collection and  new memories. Both girls said thank you and that they had the best day. 
 

Treasure indeed  

 

 

Here’s the collection for the day and a little bone I found to ID later. Since shark teeth just usually get tossed in with the rest of the teeth in the box I put these in a jar so this day stays separate. 
 

Happy Holidays! 
 

Im grateful for the forum, the community and the educational resources they provide. 
 

Jp

 

[automech]

Beautiful memory!

[dries85]

Looks like a great day for all of you! Those Hemi's are really nice, still looking for my first one 😆

[Balance]

@dries85

 

They don’t like getting very deep into the water. Especially when it’s cold. My youngest “was” invincible and I had to watch her like a hawk to make sure she wasn’t getting into a tight spot. Then a few months back we were out in the gulf islands exploring a “deserted island” and she stepped on a crab. Got her good!  Now she won’t so much as dip a toe in.  

 

I had a similar phase after watching the movies Jaws and JawsII one summer. All water activities were canceled due to sharks and alligator related certain death.  
 

This new phobia lends itself to sifting mostly sand with them. As such I use a leftover pool patio “super screen”  section attached to some cedar. Nice “pocket sieve” for my backpack but it’s perfect for grabbing the pretty little teeth that fall through regular screens. 

This photo was last spring or maybe even two years ago. I’ve had this little sieve forever. First thing I made to start looking for stuff on purpose. I think the fact I found so much that fell through other sieves is what kept me interested during the first couple seasons of, as you can see, sifting sand. So I lend the same idea to them. They don’t care about the Equus left cuboid I’m longing for but they love continuously yelling, “I see one!”

 

Happy holidays, Friend 

 

Jp

[Balance]

Headed out this Sunday 12/31/23 - leaving from Zolfo if you find yourself heading out yourself. Turn left and keep going. Then keep going till you find a blue lipped man and a very pretty dog. 

 

Last chance for a hunt in 23 and conditions are fantastic 🙄 … 45low in the AM and 68 high temps afternoon. River water is in the 60’s. Water is  still up from a week or two ago. Not bad, but still 6-8” too high for the deep hole. 
 

I added ‘some’ reach to my game for tomorrow.  The wetsuit is ready but I’m gonna try to fossil fish in the deep water until the suns up a bit. See if I can’t scoop up some treasure to close out 23. Figuring out scooping from a floating canoe should be interesting. I suppose more to come on that. 
 

Onward! We ride at dawn! (For tomorrow,  let’s call dawn 9/930-ish! so it’s just a tad warmer) -

 

—- 10am update, we slept in because it was Le Cold. Thank you, that is all.

 

Fossil hunting will resume shortly. 

 

Happy New Year! 

Jp
 

Millie for scale:

Edited December 31, 2023 by Balance
Slept in like a teenager and it’s late!

[dries85]

Did make me feel like getting out on the last day of the year anyway, so i did 😁 at 10° Celsius it was fairly warm for the time of the year here anyway and the fact that i don't need to get in the water ofcourse helps..

Interesting tool you have there, looking forward to seeing it in action!

 

Have a great start of the year!

[Balance]

Too many irons in the forum fire!

 

Gotta finish a deer dentition project before the next trip report can go up. It was however, a great day on the river. 
 

You could say I needed a swift kick in the pants.  Well, Someone punted me into my hole and I finally broke through the “dead zone”!!!!  
 

While scout hunting some nearby areas to the hole I hit a little jackpot of drusy botryodial beauty! Yet another Miocene deposit in my late Pleistocene area. That 26’ flood moved some stuff around! 
 

Abertelli dengleri is the sand dollar with the secondary texture over the surface. @Sacha has been helping with these new echinoid finds. 

Here’s a look at those polished up. I couldn’t wait… 

Electric sand dollar , y’all. 

 

Found another chunk of that chert/agate/limestone hybrid stuff. It polishes up absolutely bonkers 

 

One more and it’s a mystery… Trace fossil? The symmetry is perfect and the boarder too. Drusy cluster because why not. 

 

That’s just the rocks and minerals!!

 

Have a great week and look out for the “Intro to Deer Dentition 101”. It’s time to put these miss ID’d teeth to bed!

 

Keep the faith and try to do good!

 

Jp

Edited January 3 by Balance

[Shellseeker]

Nice finds,  jp... Friday looking warmer,  maybe I'll try tomorrow... It's been a couple of weeks.

 

What do you think?  sea urchin spines ? could be a seashell like turretellas

[Balance]

@Shellseeker As a guy I know would say, “Happy hunting!” - it’s that interesting time of year where it’s warmer in the water. 😉 

 

I have not even begun the what it was journey. Currently jumping around between work projects and playing fossil detective on my breaks. 
 

I can say that everything in the shell hash is de-laminating. So all the clusters look like oyster shells the way it’s stacked up “paper” layers of shell. 
 

First I gotta get deer and camel teeth sorted, then the various horses and their teeth, and the entire skeletal anatomy of every other Pleistocene Florida mammal. Then we can start playing with the can of worms that the shells are.  
 

Stay warm!

 

Jp

 

Here’s a picture of the shell hash that’s mixed in with these  botryodial Pieces. 
 

[digit]

On 10/23/2023 at 4:40 PM, Balance said:

So back to drumfish. Why are they so rare? There’s been enough water for them to come and go just as frequently if not more so than the other species we find. So is it fragility? Or am I missing something? How can a fish species be rare to find compared to the extinct shark species that have only had access to certain areas many many millions of years ago?

Getting to the party late on this topic but thought I'd add my tiny input.

 

Regarding the seeming abundance of shark over drum fossils, there are a few things to consider. As mentioned above, enameled teeth preserve better than most other parts of the skeleton and that's why we find more teeth (of all types of animals) than non-tooth fossils. Sharks go through a lot of teeth throughout their lives. With constant production of replacement teeth a shark is able to keep its toothy grin sharp and lethal. I've read stats that a shark living a full life can go through 30,000-40,000 teeth. Drums do replace their crushing teeth on the pharyngeal (throat) plates. New teeth are formed below and the "button teeth" are replaced regularly--though possibly not at the rate of shark tooth replacement.

 

As Jack mentioned above, drum pharyngeal "button" teeth tend to be fairly small and most can easily pass through a 1/4" screen. There are also thousands of fish teeth as well as smaller shark/ray teeth that also do not get caught in a 1/4" screen and are generally only found while picking micro-matrix. This is one factor in making shark teeth appear more common than drum (pharyngeal) teeth. Pick a cup or two of matrix between window screen size (~1/16") and 1/4" and you'll see that fish teeth and ray teeth like stingray or wedgefish now dominate the shark teeth. Shark teeth are more limited at this size range to baby teeth of larger shark species though things like Rhizopriodon (sharpnose sharks which only grow to a meter or so in length) start becoming the most common shark tooth species.

 

The last thing to consider is that sharks shed teeth (and dermal denticles) throughout their lives and likely do it with no detriment to the shark--they likely do not even notice the loss/replacement of teeth. A rarer shark tooth to find is a hollow enamel casing without any root or infilling. These are teeth that were just beginning development in the shark's mouth (enamel gets laid down first then the inside is filled and the root added last). These developing teeth are rarer finds as they can only be left for fossilization if the shark dies. Similarly, drums shed pharyngeal teeth (at some rate I've not found stats for online) but the pharyngeal plate that holds these teeth in the pharynx only have a chance of being fossilized when the drum dies--the plate itself is not shed during life.

 

The real comparison for relative abundance of fossils should be between things like drum pharyngeal plates and hollow shark teeth--both of which are only available for burial and fossilization after the previous owner dies.

 

Regarding marine drums verses freshwater, we find ancient (likely extinct) relatives of marine drums similar to the Black Drum (Pogonias cromis) as well as the Freshwater Drum (Aplodinotus grunniens) at sites like the Montbrook site near Gainesville. This and other evidence informs us that the fossil site was a wide river basin likely not far from the coast that was possibly a mix of fresh and saltwater as ocean levels varied.

 

Hope this helps to clear up an (apparent) mystery.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Balance]

@digit  Ken, Thank you! 
 

Your “tiny” is much like mine. 
 

That was a lot of response and I appreciate your help. Not only the info but taking the time to write it all. 
 

Interesting stuff and as the river seems to do I’ve kinda been influenced towards heading in a direction I was thinking about. — How crazy would I be if instead of spreading my spoil pile out, I took a few 5 gallon buckets of it home? With Balance I don’t really have load restrictions so I could transport easy enough. If I spread the top foot of a 3’ spoil pile and then put the lower stuff in a bucket in theory I could sift with my window screen sifter at home. 
 

That would remove my neon digger signs and maybe I’ll find some drum fish teeth in there. 
 

I’ve been looking at the Miocene vrs Pleistocene water levels a lot regarding this topic but also some other stuff I’m trying to sort out. Plenty of different periods of both fresh and salt water over the peace river watershed. So we would already have a mix of fresh and saltwater drum if that was the case. 

Thanks again,

Jp

 

edit: had another idea. One in which the bucket might actually get sifted instead of just sitting outside my house for months till the river floods. I’m gonna go camping for a long weekend soon. Sifting micro buckets is the perfect thing to do at night with a headlamp on and a campfire roaring. 

Edited January 5 by Balance

[digit]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:30 AM, Balance said:

That was a lot of response and I appreciate your help. Not only the info but taking the time to write it all. 

That's pretty much how we roll here on the forum--when a question comes up that matches a member's fossil knowledge (even if it is limited) it is always useful to spread the knowledge as much as possible.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 10:30 AM, Balance said:

If I spread the top foot of a 3’ spoil pile and then put the lower stuff in a bucket in theory I could sift with my window screen sifter at home. 

If you have more than a single sifting screen you can stack one on top of the other. Between the two sifting screens you can insert a loose piece of window screen (larger than the sifting screens). The window screen will let out the really fine silty sand (less than around 1/16") and result in some nice micro-matrix to take home for picking. Occasionally, I will forgo the dual sifter and just bucket up everything that passes through my 1/4" screen. That is useful if I think there will be some nano-fossil of interest right around 1 mm in size.

 

Always nice to be able to pick micro-fossils on a day when you can't get out to the field to look for larger items. On a rainy or cold day, a comfy chair and some micro-matrix on a picking plate make for a low intensity fossil hunt.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[digit]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:46 AM, Balance said:

Millie was not as impressed as I was. 

 

If you look at an illustrated dictionary under the term 'Stink Eye', I believe this picture explains it all.

 

You made my wife's day just looking at this photo.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Balance]

@digit 

 

Once again you nudged in the direction I was headed. Been using my second sieve for the added floatation and last trip was thinking I should add a piece of my fine screen onto it to try and keep dolphin teeth and stuff like that from passing through. I use a 3/8” size.  Figured maybe increase the small sharks teeth too but transferring just the under screen to a bucket is a great idea! Way smarter than hauling 15 gallons of sifted material home! 
 

Way back in the archives I Saw a picture of you on the beach I like to camp at. You had declared the area “cleaned out for the season!” 

We really need  bronze or nickel type coins to toss in our holes that say, “Ken was here”, “Already in Jacks’ collection”, or “Out of Balance”. 😂 If I could just dig up a coin and know y’all had already been there it would make life easier. 
 

Have a great rest of the weekend! Taking down Christmas lights around here… 

 

Jp

 

— Millie is basically a person. She fully communicates with me and expects me to understand. This includes disappointment and disapproval. “Stink eye” is 100 percent accurate and common phrasing around here too. 

[dries85]

Yeah it's always quite a bummer looking through your finds of the day and noticing that everything you've collected fits through the holes of a 1cm sifting screen...

[Alvrr.0]

It's like the perfect trip to search fossils. Your pictures are awesome. Congrats! 

[Darktooth]

I enjoy this thread and have only had time to skim through some of it. At some point I will have to find time and read through it all. It is nice to read something from someone who has so much enthusiasm.

[Balance]

Revision 1 has been updated. 
 

Thanks!

Jp
 

So who’s tired of getting deer teeth wrong? I know I am.  As such I’m trying to learn what’s necessary to avoid further misidentification. Below is a small slice of the pie. Big enough to help with a fundamental basis for identification but hopefully not so much you can’t stomach the info.

 

Consider this installment one to create dental study guides for the use in identification of mammals for both Florida and other regional fossil hunters. 

 

Im learning. That’s the key. The report is compiled from several sources which I will link at the end of the report. Some of my interpretations of info were/are still in need of tweaking and I’m okay with that. Nobody turns in a research assignment and doesn’t expect to be given revisions. All further suggestions for correction, improvement, or clarification are welcome. Eventually, this will be fully accurate and hopefully understandable. 
 

Here’s to knowing!

 

Jp
 

 

 

Intro to Intro Odocoileus Virginanus Dentition:

Common name - White Tail deer

 

A guide to understanding basic white tail deer teeth development with a focus on tooth position , age determination and wear consistencies as related to fossil identification. 
 

Sections:

1) Basic information on white tail deer teeth 

2)Teeth location, Adult teeth transitions, and age determination 

3)Gallery of Identification featuring TFF member images 

4)Deer teeth ID challenge/quiz

 

 

Section 1: Basic Deer Teeth - facts and terms

 

Adult deer have 32 total teeth; six incisors, two canines, 12 premolars, and 12 molars.

 

Deer don’t have all of their adult teeth until they’re about 2.5 years old. By this time they’ve lost all of their baby teeth–they’re replaced by adult, permanent teeth. 

Key Terms:

    •.   Incisors- 6 total. Lower only. Upper jaw has fleshy but hard cutting pad. Cuts food and begins food transfer to mouth

    •    Canines - 2 total.  Not different from incisors and generally considered to function as additional incisors 

    •    Premolars-  2, 3,  and 4 used for further cutting food
    •    Molars- 1, 2, and 3 used for grinding food
    •    Enamel- the hard, white(fossils can vary in color)outer surface of the tooth
    •    Dentine- the soft, brown inner core of the tooth
    •    Infundibulum- hollow portion in the middle of the tooth. 
    •    Tartar- brown staining on outside of teeth. May or may not be visible depending on staining or coloring from deposition environment. 
 

    • Capital ‘P’ or ‘M’refers to the upper dentition

    • Lowercase ‘p’ or ‘m’ refers to the lower dentition

 

    • premolar numbering is offset by 1 placeholder identifier . This is because the 1st premolar was lost during evolution. Because this place holder is still counted the forward most premolar is actually the second premolar by identification.

     
As example:

    (p4) is the 3rd premolar location on the lower jaw. (p2) would be the identifier for the forward most premolar. (m3) would refer to the 3rd molar on the lower jaw. (M1) would in contrast be referring to the upper first molar. Etc.  
 

     • Additionally, all deciduous teeth (baby teeth that will be lost and replaced) are noted with a “d” before the location identifier. Deciduous teeth are all considered premolars. dp3 would be the location identifier for the 3rd deciduous tooth. This could be confusing because the deciduous teeth are numbered without the lost pre molar location of the adult teeth identifiers.

— Perhaps this is because with the first premolar lost to evolutionary changes it’s not possible to know if it was deciduous?

 

    • I found it worth noting that photo examples of intact upper maxilla dentition, particularly fossil related, are not common and Harry’s photos from TFF are the best examples available for fossil upper tooth comparisons. 

 

Lay of the land…

   • lower jaw shown left panel.

   • Upper and lower jaw interaction lower right panel . Did you notice the flip flop of tooth orientation between top and Bottom?
   • Upper right panel is term identification. 

Incisors with canines. 


 

 

Section 2: Teeth location, Adult teeth transitions and age determination 

 

Why does a fossil hunter care how old the deer was? Well, because deer loose teeth and get permanent teeth that means they have different teeth at different points in their lives. Depending on age/wear those teeth can change considerably in appearance too. So understanding the progression of dental age is necessary for IDing the tooth you find to a specific location within the dentition. 

Fawn .5 years old - yearling 1.5years old

 

 

   • Can you find the secret in Harry’s image?? What can you determine from this image and what process is about to happen? 

If you answered that it’s a yearling because of the tricuspid third tooth (dp3) and fully erupted molars, that’s right! If you noticed the permanent bicuspid premolar (p4) about to erupt you get bonus points! 

 

 

 

2.5 years -

   •In the lower left panel is a Lower right jaw as shown at 2.5 -3.5 years with (p3-m3) 
In the lower right panel is a lower left jaw at 2.5 years with the full (p2-m3)

 

    • Progressing in age with the two upper panel examples. At younger age (darker example to the right) the m3 third cusp is  smaller shaped and it becomes flatter with age and wear. Notice the sharper points on the younger teeth compared to the older  m3 pictured in the upper left.
More enamel than dentine should progress into an even split by enamel and dentine over the next two years. 

4.5-5.5years of age. 

Into the 4-6 year group teeth become progressively worn. Eventually becoming flat with far more dentine than enamel. After this age is all speculation based on wear. With living deer it’s difficult and with fossils, that added wear from deposition and exposure also become a factor. 

 

 

Section 3: Comparative image gallery 

 

Use these images for comparison when obtaining location and age specific IDs. 
 

2.5 years old - lower right jaw (p3-m3) - Jp’s comparison photos. 

Notable points of interest are the sharpness of the teeth, the undeveloped third cusp on m3 and the straightness of the position of the teeth in the jaw compared specifically to  M1-3

 

 

Upper maxilla. TFF gallery image. Harry Pristis 

Points of interest - teeth appear worn into the 4.5 year age group or older. Upper molars have a tiny stylid on the lower inside. Inward pitch of upper molars are greater than lowers.  Full upper dentition (P2-M3)
 

4.5-5.5 years + (m2-m3)- TFF member image- Harry Pristis

Points of Interest - lower examples dentine is wider than enamel. Third cusp of m3 is fully shaped and worn. All teeth look worn and appear flatter. - upper example appears less worn. Some wear and point reduction. Third cusp of m3 appears less flattened and worn off than the lower example. 

 

Above 5.5 years old. - p3-m1 + 1/2 m2 - TFF member photo - Harry Pristis.  
 

points of interest- Substantial/advanced tooth wear. Flattening. Almost pure dentine with limited enamel. No points 

 

 

4)Deer teeth ID challenge/quiz

 

Let’s try out what we learned! Interesting twist, I’m taking this quiz as I post it so no guarantees I’m right! Give it your best and I’ll post my answers in a follow up comment below the quiz so don’t look till you’re ready!

 

Open forum quiz: FYI. 
 

#1

 

 

#2

 

 

#3

 

#4 & 5 

 

#6 - 

 

#7 - Jp thinks some things are incorrect with the graphic below. Do you find anything wrong? What would you change for paleontological anatomy correctness? 

 

Check your answers with mine to see how we compare and if we need to read this again.   scroll past Millie for the results!

 

 

 

1- young (m2) (right)

2- old/substantially worn (p4) (right) 

3- middle age M1 (left)

4/5 - M1&M2 with M1 being an older specimen and M2 being younger (right) 

6- tricky one! It’s two images of a yearling deciduous tricuspid 3rd tooth (dp3) 

7- The text uses the term “mature” but the tricuspid third tooth (dp3) says yearling. Mature teeth are after 2.5 years? Labeling of premolars 1,2,3 doesn’t account for the evolutionary absent first premolar. As such the teeth IDs are incorrectly positioned and convey incorrect information. 

 

 

Here’s to better accuracy and more successful ID attempts on this fossil hunting journey! 
 

Keep the faith and try to do good!!

 

Jp

 

 

Sources:

https://www.in.gov/dnr/fish-and-wildlife/wildlife-resources/animals/white-tailed-deer/how-to-age-a-deer/

 

https://a-z-animals.com/blog/deer-teeth-everything-you-need-to-know/

 

@Harry Pristis members image gallery TFF. 

 

Jp’s personal collection 

 

Google image’s search’s for quiz and post tricuspid 3rd yearling tooth and tricuspid m3 examples. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9 by Balance
So much trepidation… final answer (until it’s not)

[Harry Pristis]

1 hour ago, Balance said:

Upper maxilla. TFF gallery image. Harry Pristis 

Points of interest - teeth appear worn into the 4.5 year age group or older. Upper molars have a tiny stylid on the lower inside. Inward pitch of upper molars are greater than lowers.  
 

(I count 6 teeth. P1-M3. - ID tag list P2-M3. Doubt Harry made a mistake so looks like I found a whole to fill in my learning…)
 

Yes, Jonathan, you missed something.  Deer, like horses and many other taxa, have three premolars, but these are the rearmost premolars, p2, p3, and p4.  Premolar one is lost in these species as they evolved.  Unhappily, your labeling the premolars as one, two, and 3, undermines this basic paleontological convention.  I hope you'll edit your post, including the images.

[Balance]

@Harry Pristis

 

I’ll work on my errors, tomorrow.
 

Thanks for contributing 

 

Jp

[Harry Pristis]

Good.  While you're at it, note that in this image

 

 

the emergent tooth is a bicuspid premolar (p4), the tooth that replaces the tricuspid deciduous premolar (dp3).  All deciduous cheek teeth are premolars.

[Balance]

@Harry Pristis release the hounds.  Saving final revisions now. 

 

“the beatings will continue until moral improves”

 

Thank you,

 

Jp

[Balance]

Fossil Hunting Trips are currently suspended until I fix a little issue…. 

 

 

    No injuries, just damaged pride from the wife and daughters mockery of my ridiculousness. I wasn’t paying attention when putting holiday decorations away, and I stepped through the ceiling. 😁 

 

Oh well!

Silver linings:

 -  I can fix it in a hour or two 🤫

 -  They think it will take all day which frees up shop activity time 

-   The rivers 2-3’ too high to work where I’m currently invested so might as well catch up on projects around the homestead. 

Luckily this trip report and photo grids have already been in the works for a week or so. It was delayed because I needed to finish my deer teeth study guide. Since most of it is already done, the boss granted a temporary stay of labor duty. 

 

New Years Eve:
 

Conditions were incredible. A touch chilly, but tolerable. Water clarity was a 9.5 out of 10. Near perfect visibility 2-3’ down. Not much better than this. 

 

It was a banner day for trash collection. Typically I toss any glass or plastic trash into a bucket I keep in the boat. Beer bottles and old cooler pieces are most common but occasionally you’ll hit a sweet spot. 😁 - this spots trash was apparently accumulated in the late 60’s early 70’s. 
 

RayBan sunglasses, push button radio, and an older RC cola bottle. 

 

 

Not a lot on theory or technical wins/losses this trip.

 

I basically just kept digging in one of my holes. 

 

    - This was one of two, new found feelings this trip. I have “holes”. 😊 Active dig sites that I go work in. As opposed to the previous style of every trip you are looking for somewhere to dig. Man this feels great. Kinda legit. In an odd way it’s less stressful. 

     
      “What hole should we go to this week, Millie?” “What kinda stuff do we wanna look for this week?”
 

The deep hole is still too deep so I’d dig in the shallower of the holes a while and would take little breaks to walk around the area and fossil fish with my long scoop. Repeated this from 12-530pm. Incredible day. 
 

What about new feeling #2? 
 
Feeling number two was that the next shovel load is unknown. You’re deep enough that you are seeing what’s coming up for the first time. This is an entirely different excitement level. At least for me. It’s exciting from the moment I start loading the truck, but this was different and I liked it! There could be anything in that new load of gravel. Powerful motivation. 
 

You see, I’ve focused too much on the rivers past. Most specifically, it’s past with other hunters. 

For example:

 

My area has a dead zone about 2’ down. No fossils, teeth, or even turtle stuff. It doesn’t matter if you’re a ways away in the area I see most casual hunters frequenting, or many places in between. I’ve dug holes all over that area and all went empty at 2’ down. I then find TFF archive photos and post of hunters in my area. 😂 Declaring it cleaned out for the season and we’ll be back next year.  Tour groups leaving the area a wreck was another devastating post to read about where you’re digging a hole. I was obsessed with knowing if someone had, “already dug this hole”. Yup. 😂 they did. Now, what are you going to about it? 
 

Fast forward and I see another hunters decision to hunt an already hunted out area. It’s like he did it to prove a point. 😉 because out from the hole pops a big ol meg tooth. I don’t even care much about Meg teeth but the message was clear. Just dig the darn hole until it runs out or you go underwater trying. Heard, Chef. 
 

Another member said something similar about how the river resets itself and its layers constantly. Infinite possibilities of shuffling around materials. The point he was demonstrating was that there is no theory to learn and apply. It’s just what it is at that moment. This point has been proven clearly this year by the Miocene float (I have a feeling the actual Miocene cut/deposit is about 6-7 miles upstream) that I’m finding in a notoriously late Pleistocene area but wasn’t last year. 26’ flood y’all. 

I say “Notorious” because most hunters appear to want Megs and my area is historically not very good for that. Information also garnered in the archives. Back to the forum member explaining to a newer member that you don’t just dig to a sweet spot and find ‘X’. There’s a post about a certain bridge and a certain area and a certain depth for exactly what the guy was originally trying to find. Less theory and more archives and he’d of found his answer. 
 

So I’m here. Wherever this is. I have holes I’m actively excavating and when they run out or I decide to hunt for what’s missing. I’ll go dig new holes. Some will be good. Others maybe duds. Every year the river leaves new materials on top. So no matter where I’m working, breaks to fossil fish the surface layer can also turn up anything. 
 

So that’s it. For now,  I’m just going to fossil hunt. 

 

 

Nose cone was laden with treasure by days end. Botroydial gifts from the fossil fishing pole, loads of teeth and some real treasures. 

 

Magic hour lighting for a quiet ride back. Saw a friend of Jacks’ on the way. 
 

 

 

Here are the spoil highlights of the day 

 

Prettiest Hemis, two more sand shark and more cool tiger sharks teeth. I’m so behind with learning information it will be years before I start trying to learn these too. Good news is I’ll have thousands to study when it’s time. 

 

“Marine Dolphin tympanic bulla” - is all I have so far until @Boesse can confirm. I had a comparison photo from Jack but I appear to have deleted or failed to save it. 
 

 

Mystery Ear bone. -   Speculation is Equus. Im not convinced. I will link the thread of interest along with a research paper for reference. The entire ear bone discussion is brand new to me and the paper is intense reading. Incredible value for information and identification but still slow going. These things have multiple holes that all need to match up. Not just a shape or pattern alignment. I’ll update as I learn more. Links below post. 

 

Peromyscus-
Cotten mouse lower jaw. No teeth. This was my favorite find. I absolutely love when the incredibly fragile survives the journey to the sieve. 

 

Hydrochoerus holmesi- 
Capybara cheek tooth. I’ll post a comparison photo below. Tooth numbers for capybara are unknown to me so we will just stick with “cheek tooth” for now. 😉 

 

One of Jacks finds and the other is Harry’s. 

Harry’s upperphoto  and Jack’s lower photo.  This image came second hand but if you Search Harry Pristis info and then look into his various galleries you’ll find his imagery collections. 

 

 

Fun stuff- upper left is my biggest mammoth tooth fragment so far. Upper right is a beautiful fish spine?(is it still a spine if it’s a fin?)

Lower left are a tortoise osteoderm and a mystery “Hershey Kiss”. Center lower are endo cast of Tamiami shells and some sponge. Right lower is turtle shell but it’s the first I’ve found with just the perimeter pattern. Reminds me more of a snapping turtle than the sea turtle frags. 

 

 

Did we find ancient man’s ham bone!!!!??? 
 

No. So instead of being tossed out of a 15k year old dugout it was tossed over an 83 Jon boat. 
 

Top left image. Look close and you’ll see the bandsaw cut marks. Looks like a 12TPI saw blade. I have a 10TPI blade on my big saw currently. Maybe some bone cuts are in order for proving the modern age. 😂 - I wanted this to be ancient Sooooo bad. Lol. Knew it wasn’t from the start.

 

(Edit: After cutting some stuff today it does appear the pattern is bandsaw made. However, I’m incorrect in the spacing having to do with saw blade TPI. It appears to be the weld location of the blade. Over cutting at even spacing as the bone passes through and the blade completes a rotation.)

Mystery … 

 

I found this one on my girls trip over the holiday.  Can’t find anything like it. I have learned a bunch of other small bones in the process. So that’s good. I thought I had both proximal and distal ends of the bone represented but??  

 

 

Trash to treasure..  

 

Until the next trip I’ll sign off with some interesting info about that RC cola bottle. 
 

Some back info: When I was little we lived in an apartment a street or so away from an Amaco service station. I actually played little league for the Amaco team one year. This station was old when I was a kid and it is long gone these days. It had a glass bottle soda machine. That I can remember perfectly. This is gonna sound like BS but I would collect glass bottles in my wagon and turn them in at the Publix customer service counter. Then I’d use the change to by a glass bottle RC cola from Amaco. I remember it was RC because that’s all that was in it. Now, this is probably 1986/87 so by now most soda machines are cans with multiple options. This old machine and its complicated operation was my favorite soda stop though. Even had can machine’s on both sides of it. RC cola is still my preferred soda. Coke or Pepsi? No thanks. I’ll take a real cola. (Spiffy brand is the best IMO). 
 

Back to the bottle…

 

Being interested in most things I wanted to see what age this bottle was because I didn’t recognize the logo style. There’s far more info on old soda bottles than fossils.  I learned that in 1969 RC cola changed to the logo I remember. The red and white RC bubble. So I knew I had a pre 1970 bottle. As I looked further my bottle didn’t match the general style of the 1930-69 bottles. The logo was correct but in a different location and it’s smaller. 
 

Upon reading a forum of soda bottle enthusiasts I learned that the company ran several special series bottles in the 1969 year. Now, I wasn’t there but if I had a company that was about to completely change bottle styles I’d try to use up my current inventory of bottles first too. So RC did a special small diamond bottle for NY Mets promotional campaign in 1969. The “Mets” bottles are some of the rarest. Mine is not one but if it’s stamped 1969 it’s a rarer short run bottle preceding the official switch. How can we tell right? Well, Green diamond RC bottles are stamped with the year on the bottom. 
 

So I found a very rare piece of trash. It flooded my memories and now I have decided to find the rest of the RC bottles. Not online. Only if I find them in the river. (exemption for current as they don’t sell glass bottles outside specialty shops)  I like a challenge. No other bottles. Just RC brand. That’s the rules. 
 

Saved this one and took the girls to the soda shop so I could get a glass bottle (not plastic) with the current logo. Two currently located! 
 

Keep the faith and try to do good!

 

Jp

My bottle top left. An old Amaco and the three main logo styles. Top of my shop cabinets where I keep stuff I like or do with the kids. 

 

Notice the info date and logo location in the old add. Both the old bottle style and new logo are in the same add. 

A standard RC diamond with a “tiny diamond”. 

 

 

Links for Ear bone research:

https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/90242
 

Ear bone thread TFF :

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14 by Balance

[digit]

20 hours ago, Balance said:

Peromyscus-
Cotten mouse lower jaw. No teeth. This was my favorite find. I absolutely love when the incredibly fragile survives the journey to the sieve. 

 

 

I'm not seeing any teeth in that jaw but it is difficult to see black fossils photographed on a white background. You may have more luck with brighter images if you use a gray towel or piece of construction paper as a background for your photography.

 

Cricetid rodents in the genus Peromyscus are well known from the Florida fossil record (generally Pleistocene to early Holocene sites) though the genus seems much better known from the Southwest. There are two other rodents that show up in the Florida fossil record vert commonly--the Hispid Cotton Rat (Sigmodon hispidus) and the Round-tailed Muskrat (Neofiber alleni). The shaped of the teeth are key to identifying rodent fossils. I don't know if you'll be able to infer a tooth shape from an empty tooth socket (alveolus).

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Balance]

@digit Thanks! Making family breakfast and thinking about rodent jaws. Perfect start to a drywall project day. 😂 

 

Ok. So I used my book “Florida Fossils” by Robin Brown to find the ID. Since I didn’t have teeth I tried to use the measurements. My jaw fits the size of the cotton mouse but as you noticed it’s wrong otherwise. I missed several nuances. 
 

The sizes in the book are surprisingly close to scale and make this a little easier. However, if I’d have looked further than general shape and size I’d have noticed that the cotton rat jaw is a better choice.
 

The inward pitch of the three rear teeth. The 3 sockets match cotton mouse too but the position is more parallel to the incisor. The rats teeth position is noticeably different and matches my example. The teeth position is incorrect for squirrel and it’s too small for gopher. So I’m leaning towards a young cotton rat (Sigmodon). 
 

* I agree on the white background. On my to do list is to Cnc a measurement grid onto a photo tray and paint it light grey. My OCD hates changing the look of a “thing” once it’s established so I’ll have to work through the change but I’ll get there. 
 

 

Thank you!!!  
 

Jp