Adventures in Balance. A Peace River fossil journal.

[Balance]

Hello

 

These are the adventures of myself and my dog Millie as we hunt for fossils and history along the Peace River.  Our mode of travel is our 12’ Indian River Canoe, Balance. 
Im a 4th generation Polk county native, and Millie comes from a long line of Colorado ranch dogs. We do everything together. Including work, as I am a farrier for my day job, and the farm owners are more excited to see Millie than me! 
 

The goal of this journal is to document the learning along with the adventures. To go below our sieves, and learn why the river is presenting as it is. Other members have already posted pictures and info on every fossil I’m likely to find, but the river can still teach me/us why the hole I’m digging is delivering specific materials. Understanding what happened before what happened, happened. That’s what I want to know! 
 

Millie and I have been gifted this river and the ability to run it at a moments notice. That’s not the case for everyone. Even with access I still only get out for a morning or so a week. So this journal will also provide an avenue for those who can’t just jump in the boat with us. Jump in through this forum and help out along the way when you can/want. The more we learn the better the treasure!! 
 

Jp & Mille

 

 

 

LET THE ADVENTURE BEGIN! 
 

Season opener - Oct 2023

water depth day of - 8’ and falling. 
 

Like most things I’m impatient about, starting Fossil hunting this year was rushed. Millie and I ran head on into a river that’s a solid 3’ too high for me to handle any real working conditions. There’s places to work. We just haven’t found many at these depths! Yet!!

 

 

After work arrived and we got started towards the river. Late arrival and definitely some dark water running ahead but at this water height you just gotta keep the boat in the middle. 
 

 

Got in late but just in time for a welcome back from the Peace! 
 

We woke up ready! Well, I did. 

 

Camp and my “Field Office” ready.  Now to get wet! Because of the water depth I tied leashes to all the heavy tools and tied some extra pool noodle to them. That way I could drop them and just pull up the leader.  Brought the “Velvet Touch” probe. No stopping us now!
 

 

“What” I was after wasn’t an option this trip. I had only two available spots in mind that would be under 4’ deep. Both those spots are in a very recent deposit that I’ve been getting lots of Pleistocene and some Pliocene mammal material from. I ended up finding the time frame expected, and possibly an extinct sand shark nursery area. 

 

The river had sifted one spot completely away during the last flood so I was left with only one place to put in effort! At 4’ it was at my cap for height. I’m 5’6’’ and I could only dig 2 feet down before I ran out of shovel. So I had to figure something out.  
 

First I tried to fill the sieve on the River bottom and lift it up. FAIL!  never got it to stay put long enough to do anything productive before I’d loose it and it would pop up down stream pulling on the leash. 

 

Next I tried to lift the gravel to the sifter on the surface. There was so much water the shovel load was gone before I broke the surface! FAIL! 
 

At a max depth of 2 feet down I wasn’t going to be learning much about the geography or layers I needed to work through. So I shifted gears and decided to focus on just the top 2’ as effectively as I could. The third try ended up succeeding. I would loosen the riverbed into a loose filled hole that had collapsed on itself and then use my scoop on a pole thing to transfer the loose material up to the surface. Not the best method but I’m grateful to have been able to stand there all day. I’d work forward 3’ and over 1’ then back again. All at 2’ or less deep or I’d go under.  I suppose if I feel like moving a bunch of river bed again we could come back here and go deeper! One of my questions about this area is what is it old enough to find within it? Another trip! 
 

Here’s the gratuitous highlights shot! Not a bad day!  The alligator tooth got a yell but the sand tigers and mammal teeth got me really excited. 

 

Millie and I were exhausted and COLD!  I learned a few things this weekend to put in the journal. Before that. Let’s eat! Steak for me and steak for Millie. Yumm. 
 

 

Lessons: 

 

1. I need appropriate clothes. Like wet suit stuff. Can’t be under water like that all day again. I got chilly and had to warm up several times. 85deg out too! What I wear is fine for knee deep wading but definitely time to upgrade the wardrobe. (I did try my new dive boots and that was the only part of me that wasn’t cold)

 

2. Regular shovel handles are way too short. Amend as needed to your stature. I need a 12’

handle to dig a hole in this water. So I’m out!  

 

3. Jack, (Shellseeker) is insane!! This was my first time hunting this deep and it’s right in his sweet spot. You’re an animal!  He tried to assist my tool tuning but until you run out of shovel that’s a new feeling to adjust to. 

 

4. At two feet deep this area is where I will come for younger land aged fauna and I can expect the standard peace river sharks teeth assemblage with a higher than usual volume of sand sharks teeth. 
 

This was a great day hunting and I learned a lot.  Maybe not about what my intended question was or the areas I’ve been thinking of but a ton about gear and technique! 
 

KEEP THE FAITH AND TRY TO DO GOOD!!

 

Jp & Millie
 

Here are the finds from this trip and some info used to figure out the unknowns. 

 

sand shark and some Hemi Serra 

 

Peace River mix

 

fun and unique things - 

 

 

The mammal molar ended up being a Giant Tapir. By shape and size 3rd or 4th premolar. No root. Should have given it away. 
 

Mixed bag bottom to top of left- 

Gator tooth

gator tooth

Crappy Barbra’s incisor 

Canine- size 22mm broken suggest coyote or smaller domestic dog.  25mm would be the target. 
Tiny molar - it’s broken but by the face and measurements it’s most likely a rodent. 
Camel type tooth frag. 
 

Upper right - various tiger shark species to identify with Florida fossil hunters PDF 

 

middle - two deer horn buttons. One I already had but these were found 5 feet apart. Same deer?!? 
 

Bottom right- Eocene snail and crab shell fragments. Those are 37.5 Mya.??  Snail identification was general to the Ocala formation results of similar snail species. 

[Echinoid Express]

Very cool finds! Looks like y'all had a fun and insightful trip.

[Balance]

@Echinoid Express Thanks!  Ended too soon. Real life continues but I’ve got gear to research and plan out to keep me busy! 

[Shellseeker]

@Balance   Great post. You take excellent photos and spin a story with ease.  In 10-15 years this journal will be really impressive collecting fossils and memories along the way.  Keep in mind I am 15 years ahead of you on the Peace River and I did not start until I was 62 years old.  I made a lot of foolish mistakes and learned the hard way. 

I will comment on your finds in a follow-up post but let me start with the process.

 

1) The River in flood stage can move concrete blocks and thousand pound logs.. It easily moves gravel and sand, covering old honey holes and opening up new ones. The river is dropping what is 4-6 feet now will be 2-4 feet in a couple of weeks. 

 

2) Longer handle shovels are better.  My preference is 7 foot.. You have a perforated shovel blade.. You need to get back and side steel plates welded on ... So then , how to use it.  Your back into the current to block the flow a little. Once you get the welded plates, hold the shovel on the bottom for 5 seconds or so to sand and mud to flow thru the holes, and lift the shovel with the point of the blade up.. (allows the gravel and fossils to settle against the plates). If I am in faster currents, I bring a rope with 10 pound dive weights (as many as I need ) to hold the sieve in place. I also have an 8 foot surveyors pole to  anchor in the river bed and tie off the sieve or my kayak.

 

3) Seven years ago in January , I went hunting when air temps were in the low 40s. I have full wetsuits (3, 5 and 7 mm) I also have 2 mm surf pants and just wetsuit jackets (3 and 5 mm).  I like a 5 mm shorty wetsuit best. As long as my core stays warm, my legs are not a problem. Scuba boots are a requirement. 

 

All of this gear is cheap when you spread use over years.  My biggest cost by far is the gas to get to the river and back. 

 

One comment on the canine... It is Dolphin with rugose enamel  like these... I love them.. very hard to find...

 

Finally.  I definitely like your day job... Farrier... had to look it up.   

 

[Shellseeker]

I'll try to provide some Identifications:

1) As far as I can tell, you did not find any Sand tigers which look like this... Note the single cusp on each side.

 

The lower Hemipristis serra can look very similar

 

2. 

17 hours ago, Balance said:

Mixed bag bottom to top of left- 

Gator tooth

gator tooth Might be Croc, Multiple longitudinal grooves

Crappy Barbra’s incisor 

Canine- size 22mm broken suggest coyote or smaller domestic dog.  25mm would be the target.  Dolphin, possibly Kentriodontidae
Tiny molar - it’s broken but by the face and measurements it’s most likely a rodent. Need better photos
Camel type tooth frag. 

Upper right - various tiger shark species to identify with Florida fossil hunters PDF 

 

middle - two deer horn buttons. One I already had but these were found 5 feet apart. Same deer?!? Astronomical odds against same deer

Bottom right- Eocene snail and crab shell fragments. Those are 37.5 Mya.??  Snail identification was general to the Ocala formation results of similar snail species.

Last photo,  upper right fragment of gator jaw, I think the snails are Endocasts (shells fill with sand and mud,  Peace River acidity dissolves Calcium Carbonate) below snails are 2 calcified sponges, and then something I have never found , never even seen...

 

We will see if others agree...  This one should be saved until you find a better one, maybe 10-15 years from now,  

[Balance]

@Shellseeker

 

Jack, Thank you! 
 

The gear: 
 

I grew up in a restaurant and something we say when something has been understood is, “HEARD CHEF!” 
 

Heard Jack!  

 

I can feel a wet suit deep dive (ha! I’m terrible at puns) coming on. If there’s not a thread already on them maybe I’ll start one like the dive boots thread. I ordered those from a thread post recommendation here on fossil forum. Best purchase yet. I’d been in flip flops for ever. Lucky I have all my toes with the glass I pull out.

 

1: Extinct Sand sharks …. This is embarrassing but  let us all learn.  
 

In my Florida fossils book there is a photo of this species tooth. As Jack mentioned the important things are those barbs on either side. Until today I thought those barbs were a tiny wire stand to help raise up the tooth for black and white photography depth. So until today I’ve been an extinct sand shark finding champion!
 

 Eyes peeled for tiny barbs, Chef. 

 

 

2: The “ tiny rodent molar “ was another great example of rookie identification. I made the classic error of matching surface patterns without comparing size. Upon further investigation and measurements I have changed my identification to a small tapir pre molar. Possibly a deer type animal but When compared to another smaller tapir molar with decay of the interior layers it looks alike.  Lesson learned for now? I’ll jump to conclusions again. Don’t worry.  
 

3: The Dolphin tooth:

 

I said dolphin and gasp when I found it, but I talked myself out of it because this area hasn’t delivered anything that old. My main argument against dolphin was that it appears the enamel is intact on the top and bottom. From the limited photos I’ve seen that seemed off. 
 

However, the tooth is “twisted” unlike a predators k9. That kept hope alive for dolphin but I tried not to make something from nothing. Unfortunately, it’s in half so I’ll have to take 1/2 a rare victory for today.  
 

4: Drumfish…???

 

Im unclear on this first photo series. I was thinking crab shell or maybe a coral. If I’d have looked closer I’d have realized my fossil has depressions and the crab shell fossils in the photo are raised textures. Size was right this time but crab seems out. 
 

Is this the one that’s possible drumfish? It’s hollow inside and thin with a solid section at the bottom of the inside depression.
30mm long x 20mm at its widest. 10mm thick. 

 

Clarification on the  item in discussion would be appreciated before more speculation. Google search shows similar but it seems more delicate than the example Jack posted. 

 

 

5: The mystery…

 

I hadn’t mentioned it because it appears to be bone but not a fossil. The reason it got saved was its delicacy. Seemed like a piece of porcelain mixed in with a bunch of bowling balls. It’s amazing though. Super intriguing. Kinda looks like a SciFi space ship. 
 

Snake vertebrae was my first thought after glancing at my limited collection of books. Being it’s a river ecosystem it’s probably more likely a fish or turtle. Anyone wanna take a stab? 
 

36mm across (would be 40mm if not broken) 

23mm deep 

12mm high 

could be a full size water Moc or a big brown water snake. They would be in this range. Again, river. So probably a fish. Catfish no less. It will be as basic as it gets!  

Thanks for the insight and for the detective work! Feels good to use the brain.  
 

Jp

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Balance
Forgot to edit photos for detail and clarity. Reposted with fixed images.

[Shellseeker]

 

Need a closeup of the "crab" or drumfish. (I want to see details inside the craters) and possibly @Harry Pristis can help here....  I think the small molar next to "tapir premolar" is like deer and Harry is pretty good at that also. 

The mystery is fish, not snake... but I do not have a guess at what fish..  We have Alligator Gar in the Peace River...   @digit @Plantguy

 

[Balance]

Follow @Shellseeker’s links and you’ll find Harry’s photography at the end. I believe this will be the future standard for which photos are quality enough.  I’ll try my best.  

 

Here’s the closest I can get on an IPhone. Luckily the editors on these are extremely powerful so I can tune stuff up when needed for detail. 
 

Thanks , Jack.  I agree drumfish after reading the linked thread. Especially in high def now that I can see the little details in the center of the “circles”.  Now to learn about drumfish… 

 

Here are two levels of contrast. I like both depending on which part I’m looking at. 

 

[Balance]

In follow up with the unidentified teeth it appears with the smaller tooth I may have been tricked by the domestic pig. Again…. (A few weeks ago a mystery jaw specimen turned out to be modern pig) However, in a twist, it also appears that the larger molar IS a deer and not decaying tapir as thought. 
 

small tooth measures 12-13mm across and 5mm wide. The specimen in the supplied photo is a close match in size and I believe the side view gives a very good representation of the pigs P4 as well. Add in wear and decay and it’s looking pretty close to me. Possibly P3 but the double ridge moves me over a tooth. 

 

Larger tooth measures 14mm across and is unfortunately broken in the middle-ish so I’m not sure exact width. I believe it to be the center tooth M1? in the deer example image provided below. 
 

Any insight or opinions welcome. 
 

The specimens in question 

 

Modern pig ID and Deer ID from one of Harry P’s galleries( linked below the images. It’s absolutely incredible and deserves a bookmark for identification assistance)

 

 

 

 

[Balance]

Drumfish…. This gets way off track but I bring it back. Promise. 
 

 

So this started out with me looking for drumfish info. Quickly realized there’s still various drumfish, and that made me wonder what makes these so rare to find in the peace river. Seems plenty are found elsewhere. 
 

That led to me wondering about water levels. Which then got me thinking about time in relation to the water levels. The cool thing about the water levels (to me at least) is they will rise and fall in relation to the geography of the region. Not just a blanket line like many diagram’s draw. To better visualize this I needed a way to see them all at once. Above is what I’ve been looking at and the geographical map blows me away. I live in Lakeland, Polk county. Basically up on the ridge next to the Bartow location on the county map. Bartow is below the highland step. It’s just south of the headwaters of the peace river and terminus of the highest water channel diagram 

 at lake Hancock. 
 

What I find interesting is if you look at the water coverage image (upper left - green shade water - orange shade land) 
Lakeland is at the very bottom of the longer, left side , red finger ridge that’s still above water during the highest sea levels about 125,000 years ago.

You can follow the peace river right up to the base of the Lakeland highland and lake Hancock. Over on the other side of the channel that flows north between the orange is the very long , thin red finger of the Lake Wales ridge. On the geographical map locating the “bone valley” starts to make more sense as you can see the correlation between the remaining land mass and the geographical features. 
 

So back to drumfish. Why are they so rare? There’s been enough water for them to come and go just as frequently if not more so than the other species we find. So is it fragility? Or am I missing something? How can a fish species be rare to find compared to the extinct shark species that have only had access to certain areas many many millions of years ago?

 

Onward and upward ! 

 

Jp

 

 

(In researching this topic this thread was very informative. I’m linking it for anyone who thinks this is interesting because it basically is the same discussion but over different species and their locations based on the geographical presentation of the river. )
 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Balance
Typos

[Family Fun]

What a great report!

 

id agree with Jack, don’t appear to be sand tigers, more likely lower snaggle teeth. 

[PFOOLEY]

I like your style...I'll be following.

[Balance]

@Family Fun Thank you!  Yup… definitely misses the mark on those.   now I’m ready. 
 

@PFOOLEY Thank you!  Guarantee it won’t be boring !  

[paleopsy1]

Hey there new member here. I would love to know where you all are getting the shovels with holes and digging gear. I am currently using sand flea scoops on the Peace River , they really dont seem to work well at all. Thank you for your post I will be following.

[Balance]

@paleopsy1 

 

Hi. Here’s what I know. 
 

You can buy perforated shovels called mud shovels. You can also drill a bunch of holes in a $14 shovel. Mine needs mods. As mentioned in the response post above.
 

warning. $14 shovels come with equal value handles. I broke mine first day out. Taped it. Dug a massive mess the second day and snapped it again end of day. So I’ll be looking at the best replacement handles for my super saver shovel.  
 

The scoops are on Amazon. Just search metal detection scoop. There are too many. Apparently everyone owns one and fossil hunts because they all have 1000’s of sales. 

 

I bought the simplest version I could find so it’s easier to make modifications on.  
 

There’s lots of gear post in the gear section of the forum too.  Metal detection, gold mining and scuba all have useful gear. Google searches can get you there. 
 

Have a great afternoon! Just came back in off the river myself. 
 

Jp

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Balance

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, paleopsy1 said:

Hey there new member here. I would love to know where you all are getting the shovels with holes and digging gear. I am currently using sand flea scoops on the Peace River , they really dont seem to work well at all. Thank you for your post I will be following.

HomeDepot sells a version of Mudshovel  

Quote

Bully Tools14-Gauge Round Point Mud Shovel with USA Pattern and Fiberglass Long Handle

I have a hunting partner who is a jack of all trades and master at some of them.  He would take a Mud shovel blade , replace the short handle with one 2 feet longer,  drill holes in the blade, weld steel plates to the sides and back, foam fill the aluminum or stainless steel handle , so it would float and cap the handle with white rubber.

Fortunately for me, all I had to do is purchase the piece parts...  

[Shellseeker]

On 10/23/2023 at 4:40 PM, Balance said:

So back to drumfish. Why are they so rare? There’s been enough water for them to come and go just as frequently if not more so than the other species we find. So is it fragility? Or am I missing something? How can a fish species be rare to find compared to the extinct shark species that have only had access to certain areas many many millions of years ago?

Jp,

I guess there are lots of potential answers , but we do not know which answers are correct...

So,  we are talking about Salt water, not fresh... so  when did the ice caps melt enough to bring the sea levels up enough to bring all these salt water fish , whales, sharks into Lakeland or Fort Meade... and Drumfish is just another salt water fish.  

When we look at the drumfish or shark ,  what fossilizes ?  Teeth,  occasionally vertebra but very occasionally ... enamel is a lot harder than bone.. What about the Drumfish teeth,  small black pebbles that slip thru a quarter inch screen and one set of teeth per fish. Now sharks have an assembly line of teeth, constantly generating new ones to replace the ones that fall out.   

 

I found seashells in the Peace River, plus coral reefs...  I wondered how and when they got there ...  Here are some charts where I tried to figure it out... Those are meters in the 1st chart and zero is the current water level...

This is a tough problem,  lots of variables... 

[minnbuckeye]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Drumfish is just another salt water fish

 

What about fresh water drum when sea levels are down?? Can one identify fresh from salt water?

[Shellseeker]

54 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said:

 

What about fresh water drum when sea levels are down?? Can one identify fresh from salt water?

Mike,  Having lived most of my life on Long Island Sound and Florida,  I have little or no knowledge of Freshwater Drum.  My previous experience with Drum were all of the Salt water kind. As I answered the question, I was considering the absence of fossils of either type of Drum in SW Florida's Peace River. I have no idea whether the teeth of Saltwater and Freshwater Drums are the same or different. 

 

I may be wildly incorrect but I do not think we have drum of either type in the rivers of Florida currently and that might or might not explain the lack of fossils. 

[Balance]

Thanks, @Shellseeker! That’s exactly what I was working on in my head. Lol. Much clearer on paper. The middle graph I’ll need to look at when not on my phone. 
 

This topic will definitely get followed up on!! 
 

Jp

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Balance
Whoops

[Balance]

Entry II :

 

Secret Creek! 
 

Today was a totally unexpected hunting day. My Father in law decided to come home early. I go down and open his house up, program the AC and tvs etc. This had been planned for next weekend but since I had to drive right past the river on the way to his house. I threw Balance in and we made a day of it. 
 

Like any hunting day with a set timeframe, I had to make a choice. Use time running the river to get to spots farther away with bigger pay, or hunt a closer spot knowing I’m going to find less because it’s easier accessed? I chose to go to a spot that is totally hidden at the current water level. We’ll just call it “Secret Creek” for fun. This spot is very close to access so it’s had lots of visitors. That means smaller treasures in the sifter. However! This is spring fed so what you do find is much more colorful than what’s normally in the river. What you lack in finds here you’ll make up for in relaxation.  
 

Ready to go?! We leave at first light. Best time of day in Florida. 

 

Do remember the “secret” part? Yah, we gotta get through to the other side of this debris. Secrets await! 

 

Here we go. This starts out a little bit scary but it gets fairy tail forest real quick!
 

Parked for the day. We travel the rest of the way on foot. 
 

 

So around a few bends it’s starts getting pretty deep but the gravel collects nicely at the bottom of the ravine. First sieve and the probe was spot on! Sadly. No teeth. I’m on someone’s spoil pile. 


Beautiful spot but just sand…. 

 

Millie liked this spot. 
 

Finally hit a good probe location. 1” down and it wasn’t too shabby! (not my mess on the bank.) 

 

decent hits but had  to go deep to find anything. Again , busy spot but so darn peaceful. 

 

This Dugong bone is white!!!!! 

 

Definitely got into the clay. That clicked finally. Thanks Jack.  - I had another spot calling. 

 

First gotta clean up.  LEAVE NO TRACE! 

 

Quite a ways further up stream I left the gear and probed a section of perfectly clean creek! Found a few nice hits! 

 

 

 

Time flys! Had to scoot but made it in time to do my duties without shirking the task for fossil hunting! That’s a win! 
Tomorrow I’ll work on IDs. Got done fun stuff and as expected. Lots of color!! 
 

Thanks for coming along!! 
 

Jp and Millie

 

This morning’s spoils 

 

 

[Balance]

Good morning! 
 

Busy busy week ahead. Gotta do a honest weeks work to earn a hunting trip this weekend.  Here’s what I got started on with the unknowns over the weekend. Still working on the dark bone fragment, weird leg spur is rock thing, and I wanna read about agatized? Coral. I find a lot of it. 
 

Keep the faith and try to do good!

 

Jp

 

The lighter colored bone is a cormorant leg bone. Got a direct hit with this one! 
 

 

Jury’s still deliberating… I think this is my best example so far of a giant beaver cheek tooth.

(Hubert and Harry P with the research assist) 
 

 
 

These are Alligator verts. Had to ask for help. After an hour I was nowhere. Jack gave the assist and explained 75% of the material is missing. So I feel a little better. Biggest thing is the interlocking convex/concave sides. 

 

On this one I’ve made it to fish mouth plate but not sure if it’s puffer or porcupine fish. Those are my best guess so far. 
 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

53 minutes ago, Balance said:

On this one I’ve made it to fish mouth plate but not sure if it’s puffer or porcupine fish. Those are my best guess so far.

I do not know if it is possible to distinguish between Puffer fish and Porcupine Fish, I have always called fossils that look like this "Puffer Fish"

 

[Fin Lover]

11 hours ago, Balance said:

On this one I’ve made it to fish mouth plate but not sure if it’s puffer or porcupine fish. Those are my best guess so far. 

I believe they are burrfish.

 

Actually, here is an old post that tells the difference:

 

[Harry Pristis]

These are diodontid (Family DIODONTIDAE, porcupinefish and burrfish) mouthparts.  The family includes (among Florida fossils):

Diodon sp. and

Chilomycterus sp.